Today’s post is based upon a comment I received, which I reproduce here and remark upon. Hopefully this will become an ongoing discussion on this issue, which deserves reasoned attention.
I’d be happy to debate with you. Just email me.
Better yet, how about a public debate? I have no problem with it, and I think debates such as this do more to educate the lurking readers than the participants.
Anne Haight, you have no clue of what “illegal immigrants” mean to this state of California and in the bigger picture, the United States of America. We are the ones picking the food you eat, we build the cars you drive, and to top it all off we clean your houses.
So? I hear people make this point all the time and yet I don’t understand what meaning it is supposed to convey, or what significance it has to the issue under discussion.
And it’s a strange way of phrasing the matter, isn’t it? “The food YOU eat”, “the cars YOU drive”. As if there’s a literal underclass of slaves providing these things and they don’t get to partake of their own labors. Last time I checked, the tomato pickers and the factory workers bought tomatoes at the grocery store and bought cars like other people.
These “illegal immigrants” are not free loading, they are not a burden to your tax dollars.
Obviously you didn’t read my post citing statistics that suggest that more than 1/3 are, in fact, freeloaders.
You cannot hold us down.
Am I trying to do that? Why would I want to? What do I have to gain by preventing people from working who want to work? Stop being so melodramatic.
But what I will not do is condone or tolerate criminal behavior (or suckling at the welfare teat), and that is what we’re talking about here.
You’ve tried it before with proposition 187, which didn’t pass because this state needs us.
Um, hello? Prop 187 passed 58.8% to 41.2%.
Furthermore, this issue was not a cut-and-dried “Us vs. Them” situation. I personally met a number of Latinos who were running a “Yes on 187″ table at the student union of San Jose State University. I talked to them at some length and their reasons for supporting 187 were interesting. They were angry that illegals were coming into the US and getting benefits they didn’t work for, without being citizens or assimilating into the culture, and generally giving a bad name to all immigrants by this behavior. Sounds familiar.
And then, and then…the courts ruled it unconstitutional and overturned it. Specifically, there was a provision in 187 that would have required teachers, nurses, and social workers to act as narcs and report illegals to the government. I agree that this is wrong, and exceeds the authority that a ballot measure can grant. So the whole of 187 was overturned on this basis.
But I submit that the remainder of the initiative text was perfectly valid.
You tried it during the 60’s and many organizations were founded to rise above this hatred.
I did no such thing. I wasn’t even born until 1971.
MEChA was formed in order to get our children into college.
That’s pure bull.
The Movimiento Estudiantil Chicano de Aztlán (loosely translates to the Chicanos of Aztlan Student Movement) is an organization of thugs and moral beggars that promotes racism, violence, and open rebellion against the government. Aztlan is not even a real place. There has never been a country or a land called Aztlan.
It is a separatist movement to the core, advocating not harmony and integration and tolerance, but forceful isolation from everything non-Hispanic and discrimination against same. This is racism at its finest.
The principles of MEChA are based upon El Plan Espiritual. Its motto is “Por La Raza todo. Fuera de La Raza nada” (For the race, everything. For those outside the race, nothing.”) It explicitly politicizes this movement, and states, among other things (emphasis in bold is mine):
“. . .a people whose time has come and who struggles against the foreigner “gabacho” who exploits our riches and destroys our culture. With our heart in our hands and our hands in the soil, we declare the independence of our mestizo nation.”
“SELF-DEFENSE of the community must rely on the combined strength of the people. The front line defense will come from the barrios, the campos, the pueblos, and the ranchitos. Their involvement as protectors of their people will be given respect and dignity. They in turn offer their responsibility and their lives for their people. Those who place themselves in the front ranks for their people do so out of love and carnalismo. Those institutions which are fattened by our brothers to provide employment and political pork barrels for the gringo will do so only as acts of liberation and for La Causa. For the very young there will no longer be acts of juvenile delinquency, but revolutionary acts.”
“A nation autonomous and free - culturally, socially, economically, and politically- will make its own decisions on the usage of our lands, the taxation of our goods, the utilization of our bodies for war, the determination of justice (reward and punishment), and the profit of our sweat.”
“El Plan de Aztlán is the plan of liberation! “
This is nothing more or less than a call to open, armed rebellion against everyone non-Aztlan who “occupies” “their land”. This is a declaration of revolution and treason, calling for the establishment of a sovereign nation.
Somewhat more than a simple effort to get Hispanic kids into college, particularly since MEChA itself is a college-based movement.
The Brown Berets emerged as a powerful militant force, which the media nor anyone talks about anymore for “security” purposes.
Might as well call them brown shirts and be done with it.
I didn’t have any trouble finding information about them in the “media”. They compare themselves favorably the Black Panthers, and like the Black Panthers, they are violent, criminal animals looking for a socially chic way to destroy property and attack people. Even MEChA has had second thoughts about their affiliation with the Brown Berets.
United Farm Workers was a powerful union that emerged as one of the greatest if not the greatest union this country has ever had.
That’s debatable, but so what?
Why do you think these organizations were so important and why they were so successful? I don’t think they were successful because we are a burden on your tax dollars, I think they were successful because the people realized that they needed “illegal immigrants” for this country to survive. The people that realized this took a big step out of igorance and maybe you and your supporters will too.
Actually I think their success has a lot to do with megalomania and avarice. Unions theoretically serve their members, but really serve to line the pockets of the people who run the unions. Political organizations like MEChA and the Brown Berets exist in order to give people an excuse to be destructive, violent, condescending, and exercise their own petty power lust.
October 10th, 2003 at 1:29 pm - Edit
I guess I need a qualifier in order to comment in this ‘debate’
I am an American, born to two parents born to legal immigrants,one from Canada and one from Mexico.
If the illegal immigrants of who the originator of this debate feels that those who came here illegally are soooo important to the economy of the US and in particular California, perhaps the best recourse to prove this point would be for all illegals to depart the US immediately using the existing INS bureaucracy to help them return home.
Walk into any INS office and turn yourself in and get the free ticket to the border.
If this cripples the economy as you think it will, it will prove your point, but until then, if you are illegal and feel free to tarnish the hispanic/latino citizens reputations who earned their right to be here and contribute to our society and tax base daily, don’t expect this Mexican to feel one iota of sympathy for you and don’t expect one penny from me for a free ride for college or medical or food stamps.
Go home and watch the US suffer without you to prove your point.
October 21st, 2003 at 5:07 pm - Edit
California is our home. It always has been and always will be.
December 5th, 2003 at 5:14 pm - Edit
Illegal immigrants are being discriminated against every day in this country. Since none of you know what it’s like to be illegal immigrants, I’ll give you a piece of mind. Imagine, living in a country where the only job for a woman is to become a hooker. Imagine a place where the president is a mob king (if you don’t know what a mob is, it’s a rich gang where they never get arrested because they paid of the cops.)Imagine a place where 50% of people die of suicide or starvation, 40% die of homocide, and only 10% of old age.This is the place where I was born. I came here 10 years ago with a temporary visa that expired 9 years ago. Now, I can’t drive, go to school, get a job, get medical insurance, etc. Don’t forget that we are also people, we are not criminals yet we are treated as ones. How whould you feel if you were alive but treated like you’re dead? If you hade any piece of humanity in you, how whould you feel?
December 7th, 2003 at 12:09 pm - Edit
And whose fault is it that you didn’t go home when your visa expired? Whose fault is it than you’re an illegal resident of the United States?
The nature of your plight is, ultimately, irrelevant.
December 13th, 2003 at 7:37 am - Edit
There is only one thing to consider here. The fact that these people are here illegally. That’s it, end of statement. Sure they provide a necessary need for the state of California but they can’t do that and be legal at the same time?!? Why is it that the amount of low income and poverty level people has DOUBLED over the last ten years in California? Have the low income/poverty level people not contributed substantially to the crime rate?!? Of course they have!! Bottom line is it’s not a bad thing for ANYONE to want a better life away from the harsh reality of their former homelands, but come on, not at the cost of deteriorating the one that I call home. Unfortunately it is not a free for all anymore. This country can not handle that without the communities everywhere suffering. Welfare roles are climbing already!
Do it, fine, but do it right and do it legally!!! We shouldn’t and I hope don’t reward our own criminals by giving them lavish extras for their bad deads! Hispanics are a vital part of California’s history and should remain so, but let’s do it with alittle control. IT IS NOT A FREE FOR ALL ANYMORE, PERIOD!
February 24th, 2004 at 2:56 pm - Edit
Fuck beaners
February 24th, 2004 at 10:48 pm - Edit
Gosh, what an intelligent, well thought out argument.
/sarcasm
Care to try again, Arik?
March 13th, 2004 at 6:18 am - Edit
My father wasn’t able to sneak across a border. And because he couldn’t swim across the Atlantic, he had to come here legally through the process.
When he got here, he couldn’t speak the language and was, at times, ridiculed. But he showed respect to the nation built on new ideas by people like him.
He told me, “If you show respect for people’s culture, they will adopt you as one of them and will likewise want to share in your’s”.
Immigrant’s should respect what America is and not try to change it.
Sneaking here illegally and claiming your labors are vital to America are a contradiction. You set your own standard by breaking the law and American’s are such caring people, they still opened their arm’s to you and your response is slapping them in the face.
America is not built on illegal immigrants labor’s. America is built and sustained by a diversity of cultures and labor skills working toward a productive life, common respect and freedom.
Stop trying to promote YOURself, YOUR self pity, YOUR language, YOUR flag, YOUR gang, YOUR lifestyle, YOUR former country (why did you come here), YOUR problems.
Adopt America and it will adopt you. And have some patience.
April 13th, 2004 at 9:28 pm - Edit
I dont know why you dont like organizations like MEChA and the Brown Berets. They’re the ones who led the East L.A. blow outs and are the ones who got you a quality education. Maybe they did something to you that you didnt like, but all in all you shouldnt talk trash about organizations that you haven’t even experienced being part of. Maybe you should try and go to a MEChA conference to find out what they’re about. As for your comments on illegal immigration, i think they are a product of information that your father and mother have fed you. Maybe your parents feel anger towards illegals because your parents saw illegals with better jobs, if that’s the case than maybe you should try and learn from illegals. I dont know why your not in favor of illegal immigration, it’s the exact same thing as legal immigration: same discrimination, same low wages, same skin color. Wake up and embrace your brothers and sisters.
April 14th, 2004 at 10:58 am - Edit
I dont know why you dont like organizations like MEChA and the Brown Berets.
That’s because you failed to read and comprehend my posts above and elsewhere in this blog concerning MEChA and the Brown Berets.
They’re the ones who led the East L.A. blow outs and are the ones who got you a quality education.
What exactly is a “blow out”? As for my college education, the quality of it left a lot to be desired.
Maybe they did something to you that you didnt like, but all in all you shouldnt talk trash about organizations that you haven’t even experienced being part of.
Yeah well I was never a member of the Nazi Party either, and I think I can talk trash about them based on their own profession beliefs and ideology. Same goes for MEChA.
Maybe you should try and go to a MEChA conference to find out what they’re about.
I’ll go to a MEChA conference if you go to an Objectivist conference.
As for your comments on illegal immigration, i think they are a product of information that your father and mother have fed you.
That’s rather insightful of you, considering that you don’t know me or my parents.
Maybe your parents feel anger towards illegals because your parents saw illegals with better jobs,
My parents both worked for the DOE. My dad was a mechanical engineer who designed assembly machines for building nuclear missiles. My mother was a research biologist specializing in chemical and radiation mutagenesis.
I don’t think that envy of the guy who worked at the 7-Eleven was on their radar. Nor would the DOE have hired illegals, even assuming that they even remotely had the qualifications for my parents’ jobs.
if that’s the case than maybe you should try and learn from illegals.
What exactly can I learn? How to be a criminal? To make a mockery of my fellow legal immigrants?
I dont know why your not in favor of illegal immigration,
Once again, I must put the blame for this on you, since I have clearly (and at length) explained my reasoning. Your claim of ignorance does not have any implications for me, other than that arguing with you is obviously a waste of time.
it’s the exact same thing as legal immigration: same discrimination, same low wages, same skin color.
Uh, no, there is a crucial difference. Illegal immigration is ILLEGAL. They are line-jumping instead of waiting their turn like all the other immigrants. And legal immigrants are much more likely to get higher paying jobs, precisely because they are legal residents. Illegals get taken advantage of with low wages and long hours because they work off the radar and have no legal recourse to protest such treatment.
Wake up and embrace your brothers and sisters.
First of all, I’m an only child. I am a natural born citizen. I also happen to be white. The last time anyone in my family could be called an immigrant was back in the 1600’s. You seem to be under the impression that I am Mexican, and I can’t imagine where you get that idea.
April 22nd, 2004 at 6:13 pm - Edit
I’m sorry I mistook you for a Mexican, what a disgrace that must’ve been to you. I want to see evidence about MECHA being racist, and every other false claim you have about them. I think you’ve been getting your information about MECHA from conservative news stations like FOX, who hate MECHA, so if thats the case maybe you should get your information from a news station thats not a bias station.
April 23rd, 2004 at 10:57 am - Edit
My opinions about MEChA come from my observations of their actions, and reading their own words in both their own publications and their statements to the press.
I have detailed this in several posts on this blog about MEChA and the phenomenon of illegal immigration. I will not do your homework for you, so unless you have something further to say besides attacking my character and random guesses about what I think, I do not intend to respond to you.
February 22nd, 2005 at 5:21 pm - Edit
Moon Mountain Farms in California is Moon Valley Nursery in Arizona and Nevada:
http://plant.cdfa.ca.gov/nurserylicense/nlviewp.asp?i=454065&co=&ci=&rd=2/19/2005
Moon Mountain Farms LLC
1011 East Telegraph Road, Fillmore, CA 93015
3966 E. Howe Road, Fillmore, CA 93015
Moon Valley Nursery has 8 locations in Arizona:
Avondale / Goodyear
11320 W. Indian School
623-772-8866
North & Central Valley
14025 N. 7th St.
602-938-6666
East Valley - Mesa
2653 E. Mckellips
480-833-9268
East Valley - Chandler
3775 W. Chandler
480-812-3939
Northeast Valley
18047 N. Tatum
480-778-0611
North Valley/ Anthem
2098 W. Bell Rd.
602-424-5500
Surprise Location
16685 N. Greasewood
623-876-9606
Desert Center
14025 N. 7th St.
602-942-7313
Moon Valley Nursery has 2 locations in Nevada:
Las Vegas
9040 S. Eastern Ave.
702-361-1955
Las Vegas
7200 N. Rancho Dr.
702-735-8733
I only have 90 days left to sue in Federal Court.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/ripoff88652.htm
Google search Moon Valley Nursery.
****************************************************************
I have been protesting against Moon Valley Nursery:
http://www.moonvalleynursery.com/
for using Illegal Mexican Slave Labor
Shawn Miller
506 S. Ave. E
Portales, NM 88130
505-356-6730
April 25th, 2005 at 8:27 pm - Edit
I am doing a debate in my 10th grade advanced english class and i do not beleive in illegal immigration. Yet, i am forced to argue a “pro” side on this issue. The topic is “should illegal immigrants have the same rights as American citizens,” how can i argue this when it is blindingly clear that they should not??
August 26th, 2005 at 11:14 pm - Edit
It’s easy, take your thoughts and reasoning on this topic and deduct any of the thoughts and reasons that make sense. You should find your answer.
April 28th, 2006 at 6:25 pm - Edit
its fine if they come and work hard,pay taxes,and contribute to society as fully as a legal immigrant, but it really really makes me angry when ILLEGAL immigrants come and don’t pay taxes and still recieve public services, and it isn’t fair to those who worked hard to become legal immigrants.
technology is booming.
heck, there are robots that can conduct orchestras.
soon, there will be machines doing all the harvesting.
my debate topic:
should the u.s. government do more to stop illegal immigration?
well i personally say yes, but unfortunately i’m assigned to argue for no.
i was looking for points to use in my arguement when i came upon this site. i have to say reading it has made it more difficult for me to believe in what i’m debating for.
May 29th, 2006 at 9:48 am - Edit
As a daughter whose parents had the moral decency and integrity to immigrate here LEGALLY over 50 years ago from Ecuador and who are proud, law-abiding citizens who are grateful for the opportunties that are available to all immigrants who respect the laws, rules, customs and norms of this country, I am appalled at the illegal aliens who brazenly, openly, flaunt their contempt for our laws and then have the audacity to make unjustified demands upon our nation and its citizens. They don’t speak for me.
see, http://www.youdontspeakforme.org
June 10th, 2006 at 7:53 pm - Edit
Undocs have always been part of the economic equation in the US.
The Antis are only trying to provoke hatred towards Mexicans and Indigenous Americans.
The borders will remain as porous as the government and big business want them to be.
August 18th, 2006 at 7:20 pm - Edit
Has anybody read the history of the US and Mexico what make you idiots think that the US has always been the way it is now? California, Arizona , Texa, and New MExico were part of Mexico. Will the US function if all of the people who one day migrated here left. NOOOOOO! not only no but hell NOOOOOOO! Up to this day I have not seen a white ass gringo picking lettuce in the fields! So come on lets start using our brain and understand that we all need each other reagrdless of our immigration status!
September 8th, 2006 at 6:12 pm - Edit
Everyone is missing the real reason for why Americans are against illegal amnesty. It is not racial hatred. That’s just a scam meant to create more hatred so that the real reason doesn’t come to light.
It boils down to less American jobs, salaries that haven’t increased since the Nixon years, decreased work benefits, rising prices (gas, education, healthcare, food and housing). The American middle class is hard-pressed these days to take care of their families. In fact the American middle-class is decreasing in number. More families are now poor.
Actually American workers and Hispanic workers (illegal and legal) have a common enemy. Both Americans and Hispanics are being exploited by Big Business.
Illegals come to the US and are forced to take up jobs that don’t pay a fair wage or have any benefits. They can’t speak up and demand justice because they are here illegally. Americans are losing their jobs to illegals who uncut them wage-wise. Meat packers earned $19.00 an hour in the 1980s. Now meat packers get $9.00 an hour. Americans are forced to look for other jobs in order to maintain their standard of living.
Do Americans have a right to maintain their standard of living. Yes they do. Why? Because all of their ancestors came here with nothing and worked at horrible jobs in order to see that the next generation would be better off. My father was a day laborer; my mother was a maid. They were low-skilled workers who worked long and hard so that our family could get an education and better jobs. They paid their dues…just like the ancestors of all Americans.
I’ve heard many people state…”would Americans work in 100 degree temperatures for minimum wage?” Well, I’m old. I remember the time when Americans (all racial & ethnic groups) did this. Kids in my neighborhood would earn money cutting grass and shoveling snow. Now, they have been replaced by illegals. Kids and adults used to do construction work during our HOT summer months…willingly because years ago because they were “paid construction wages (lot higher than minimum wage at that time). High School students worked in the grocery stores–now replaced by illegals who work without benefits.
I don’t know if anyone else sees the pattern here. But, Business is replacing Americans (either with illegals or by outsourcing jobs to India and China) and putting downward pressure on their salaries & benefits.
BUT BUSINESS IS DUMPING THE COSTS FOR ALL THE ILLEGALS on to the American worker. Although some illegals pay taxes, the costs for all their social services far outweighs anything they put into the system. Current estimates indicate that each US citizen pays $11,000 for each illegal in this country. And, as I wrote…American families are being squeezed by Business and rising costs.
Now, the so-called legislators in Washington are hyping “comprehensive immigration bills.” Politicians in Washington don’t care one bit about Hispanics or Americans. These bills have been created in order to bring in millions of more low-skilled workers from Latin America.
Why? Is there a labor shortage in the US. Answer: NO. What will happen if the Senate, especially the Democrats have their way. Hispanic Americans will suffer the most. We will be forced to compete in the job market with waves of new immigrants. The new immigrants will be exploited at first. When they realize this fact, they will demand a fair wage & benefits. But, the next wave of newbies will come in and the oldies will be fired–or forced to accept lower wages.
If Business has its way–the US will ultimately become a third world nation with two classes…the rich and the poor.
Yes, we need to revise immigration. We are a nation of immigrants. But, immigration must depend upon ACTUAL need. Importing more people than there are jobs for them–only makes the rich richer.
So, beware of the hypocrites in Washington. They get their campaign monies from Business. Their first and only loyalty is to Business. They are not helping Hispanics…they are helping themselves.
February 7th, 2007 at 4:31 pm - Edit
Illegal is illegal no matter what. Good is good and bad is bad. We have to be responsible for our own responsibilities. Regardless, there are laws and we have to obey them, or we suffer the consequences. And we all suffer the consequences.
When I was younger I use to consider my self a ‘very proud’ Mexican-American, unfortunately time has taught me other. Born and raised in California, I now realize that I am an American of Mexican descent.
I wait for the Mexican government to rise up and stand tall for our people (Personal responsibility). Yes, our people, because even though I am an American, I will always remember my past and our struggles. I wait for the day that the Mexican government does something good to generate work and a good living for all Mexicans. Where there won’t be a need of people risking their lives to come to this great country, but to have a great country of their own. I wait for the Mexican government to say: My people, there is no need to risk your lives crossing the borders, because we need you here, and we don’t need the US to support us any more.
If we don’t have dreams, we don’t have anything to look forward to. I can dream all I want, but I hope that before I die my wait will no longer be in vain. I hope the corruption in Mexico is first to go.
May 26th, 2007 at 2:14 pm - Edit
There is NO SUCH THING as American discrimination against illegal aliens! The U.S. Constitution (civil rights, in particular) applies to U.S. citizens ONLY, not foreign nationals, illegally in this country. Foreign citizens are entitled to certain international human rights (like humane treatment, etc.) but those rights DO NOT include the right to protest in American streets. Any more than I have the right to go to Mexico and make demands. If we don’t wake up and realize that we are being INVADED and stop this soon, we will completely lose our sovereignty as a nation!
June 5th, 2007 at 9:46 am - Edit
“Jobs American’s won’t do”?
B.S.! We don’t want to do backbreaking jobs at slave-labor wages! Give a fair day’s pay for long hot hours washing dishes or picking lettuce and watch how many Americans line up!
Along that line, we can only use so many low-skill workers. Doubt that? Go to a day-labor corner and count how many people are hired versus how many are still there at the end of the day.
Mexicans aren’t stupid because they’re Mexican, it’s because they have no education. All they know is how to pick crops and wait tables. That’s all that they’re good for with that level of knowledge.
And, sorry, but even the mighty (?) U.S. can only pull so many people up before our knees start to buckle from the load.
Oh - and don’t even start whining about discrimination. If you think it’s so freaking bad, emigrate to another country already! *Nobody* is forcing you to come here. Nobody!
But…if you want in, play by the rules. That’s how it works in every other country in the world. If -you- want in to the U.S., follow -our- laws. All of them. If I want into Mexico, -I- follow -your- laws. Turnabout IS fair play!
April 4th, 2008 at 7:16 pm - Edit
“Mexicans aren’t stupid because they’re Mexican, it’s because they have no education.”. Strongly agree
April 8th, 2008 at 4:32 pm - Edit
Interestingly, they’re not even always uneducated. A contractor friend of mine says that he has trouble finding Americans, especially white kids, who have the common sense to do work like carpentry and drywall. Kids born in America, speaking English, going to American schools, somehow wind up not knowing how to properly measure something or how to use a power tool without injuring themselves.
My contractor friend says that he goes to a regular pool of workers who are probably illegals and pays them in cash off the books, as do many contractors these days. He hires them because they are skilled workers. Experienced masons, carpenters, brick and tile layers — they come to America illegally, too.
April 13th, 2008 at 8:25 am - Edit
It’s easy, take your thoughts and reasoning on this topic and deduct any of the thoughts and reasons that make sense. You should find your answer.