From the “duh” department:


Some fear move to allow illegals to get driver’s licenses could lead to fake IDs”

Gee, ya think?

FoxNews states the obvious today in the latest installment of this stupid idea become law. I recommend reading the whole article for a general overview of some of the main concerns people have with this new law.

“In California, you can now obtain a gun, explosives, jobs in secure areas — even at a nuclear power plant” — with a driver’s license, an undercover officer who is a document fraud expert told Fox News.

Let me be extremely clear about something: I do not have a problem with immigrants. I have a problem with illegal immigrants. I especially have a problem with illegal immigrants coming into this country and placing a huge burden on taxpayer funded services and generally living below the radar. Illegal entry into the United States is a felony. In the words of the late Congressman Sonny Bono, who was once asked about his “position” on illegal immigration: “It’s illegal.”

One of the factors that compounds this problem is the existence of the Matricula Consular card. For those of you unfamiliar, basically it is an ID issued by the Mexican government (through its consulate offices) to any Mexican national who requests one. They do not have to be legal residents of the US. The “purpose” of this card is to provide identification for Mexican nationals (read: “illegals”) in the US who do not have any kind of US identification (because they’re illegal immigrants and therefore do not have a passport, which is the normal form of ID for foreigners in the US).

Basically it is intended as a de facto amnesty for illegals to remain in the US with as little hassle from the authorities as possible, and allow them to obtain services and benefits that normally require ID that only citizens and legal residents have.

The Mexican government has managed to persuade California (and some other states) to accept the Matricula Consular cards as official identification. They can be used to open bank accounts, board airplanes, and gain access to Federal facilities.

Obviously there are problems with this, especially since these documents are not authenticated in any way. In other words, they don’t check to verify the identity of anyone who asks for one. The put whatever name on it you tell them to. They also do not cross-reference with other consulates to find out if the same individual has applied for a card more than once.

There are documented instances of criminals being arrested in possession of several of these cards with different names on them. The forgery of documents for illegal immigrants is an enormous industry. Even the Matricula Consular card itself, so easy to obtain, is also easy to forge.

The FBI outlines three major threats of these cards and other cards like them:

1. Breeder document for establishing a false identity.

2. Border smuggling of illegal immigrants (smugglers use the card to conceal their real identities and lend legitimacy to their border crossings).

3. Non-Mexican terrorist foreigners using the document in the manner of item #1. Mexican nationals aren’t the only ones with Matricula Consular cards, and have used them to enter the US illegally and establish a false identity. They can travel within the US freely and the names do not arouse suspicion on watch lists.

Illegal immigrants legally obtaining a California driver’s license (an oxymoron, as FoxNews points out) is the next stepping stone along a dangerous path. Unlike the Matricula Consular card, this isn’t nominally limited to Mexican nationals. Anyone from any country can enter the US illegally and get one.

Really, this situation is so bizarre that it defies discussion at some points. You ask yourself, “Why are we giving driver’s licenses to foreign nationals who don’t even have a passport? Why are we legitimizing illegal residency? Why are we rewarding criminal behavior?”

A driver’s license is practically the core form of identification in many states, including California. In most government contexts, having one is proof of citizenship. The only more solid ID is a Social Security Card. It’s bad enough that people have easy-obtainable forgeries of these documents. But to legalize one of them? It’s insanity.

Advocates argue that a driver’s license makes it possible (read: legal, since it’s already possible with forgeries) to drive a car to get to a job, to open a bank account, to travel, i.e. to become a productive member of society.

But they’re not supposed to be here in the first place. Matricula Consular cards exist for only one reason: to allow illegal aliens to get benefits to which they are not entitled. Only criminals have a need for one. Similarly, criminals will use this new driver’s license law to obtain official identification, whose data is totally unverifiable and unauthenticated.

A terrorist could hardly ask for a better opportunity.

UPDATE: [Kyle speaking] I just wanted to toss in a couple of points of my own. As Anne mentioned above, the first thing to remember about illegal immigrants is that they are in the country illegally. They are in criminal violation of the country’s immigration and residency laws. In short, they are criminals. And the proper thing to do with criminals is to catch them and punish them in accordance with the law — not give them driver’s licenses and treat them as though they were law-abiding.

(The fact that in California a driver’s license is essentially the only documentation you have to provide to register to vote also means that giving driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants makes it much easier for them to engage in vote fraud. In my more cynical moments I think this is the real reason why the Democrats have been pushing this reform.)

It’s possible (even likely) that many immigrants who entered the country illegally would make productive citizens. But the conclusion that follows from this is that we should consider liberalizing the immigration laws, not that we should pretend that people who break the laws aren’t criminals.

163 Responses to “Illegal Immigrants and California Driver's Licenses”
  1. Macker says:

    Gray-Out is doing to the Hispanics what the DemocRATS have done to blacks all along: give them the giant tit of socialism: state services, health care, education, welfare, etc., saying “We’ve given you all these things without having to work for it, so Vote for us!”

    And they fell for it hook, line, and sinker. Until FDR came along, blacks voted on a regular basis for the Republican Party

    Then they have the nerve to dis people like Colin Powell, Clarance Thomas, Condoleezza Rice, and oh yeah, Miguel Estrada, because they’ve made it on their own without the giant socialist tit…..shows you who the REAL racists are, and it ain’t the Republicans!

  2. Mexican says:

    Anne Haight You are a funcking stupid ass, first of all you are a fucking immigrant too, comment on driver licenses do you want someone to hit you and not pay you by their insurance and second of all, mexicans or latinos are taking over USA and before you know it we will recover our land that this country stole from mexico you fucking idiot. You don’t know shit, how could you, say such stupid stuff…

  3. Anne Haight says:

    My own auto insurance policy pays for injuries and damages I incur when I’m in an auto accident. And all the people driving around without insurance are the reason my premiums are high, because my insurance company has to sue the uninsured driver (which is a futile exercise) instead of recovering the expense from their insurance company.

    As to your second point, I don’t see what “Mexicans or latinos” (which one is it, by the way?) “taking over” the US has to do with the subject of illegal immigrants having driver’s licenses.

    What did I say that was “stupid stuff”? You feel like actually engaging in some kind of intelligent debate on the subject instead of just calling me a “funcking stupid ass” (sic), and leaving a fake name and email like the gutless coward you are? Or do you not have the balls? Christ, dude, I have a bigger dick than you and I’m not even male.

    You’re as much of a European invader as I am, seeing as how we’re both descendants of European colonists. It’s just that most of mine were from Britain and most of yours were from Spain.

    “Fuck you” is not a valid reply to my argument. So just STFU unless you have something cogent to say.

    No, I take that back. Please, keep spewing your mindless, bigoted trash so everyone can see how stupid, hateful, ignorant, and inarticulate you are. It’s amusing in a “I can’t believe people like this really exist” kind of way.

  4. nicegirl says:

    I completly agree with you Anne they do not belong here in california, having a drivers license is a privilage not a right. Have people forgotten that. There are people in this state is are legal citizens and can’t even get a driver license. Just because everyone else has a drivers license does not mean illegally immigrants should have one to. We are legal citizens so it is our privilage to have a drivers license

  5. AnotherGirl says:

    I think you are totally right, Anne. There is very little to none hope that after illegals obtain drivers licenses, they will get auto insurance too. So that situation is not going to improve. It is illegal for companies to employ illegal immigrants, so Davis was wrong when he said he just wanted to prived the people the means to get to work. They are not supposed to work, that would be illegal! I myself am an immigrant. I came here with my parents, legally. The years that it took for me and my family to obtain legal immigration papers and leave our old country being labeled as “enemies and traitors” the whole time, were endured in a desire to not take advantage of the new country by arriving here illegally. To be productive contributors to the economy and lawful tax payers, instead of waiting for hand-outs from legislators who just wanted our votes. Remember, there is a reson why those immigrants are here illegally – the US doesn’t want to let them in here legally, because there is such thing as “legal immigration” – you just have to not be a criminal and the wait is longer then just crossing a brook and hopping a fence.

  6. Daniel E. says:

    Why we are here. That is the big question. Whether immigrants are here, legally or illegally, there is a reason for it. I have embraced the U.S. as my home for the last 15 years, and I came here illegally. Do you know WHY? SURVIVAL. The United States has had a long history of intervention in many of our countries. Even today, American companies have established themselves in many of our countries, exploiting our people-paying less than $3 a day. People in our countries are still hungry. The U.S. along with many of our countries have failed to implement other economic measures that would really prevent mass migrations. I say Our countries because we come from all across Latin America, from Mexico to Guatemala to Colombia and many others. These are poor countries. We come here to survive, not as terrorist or “free loaders.” I assure you that immigrants or I should say illegal immigrants contribute much much more in taxes to this country than any services claimed to be paid by our government. Illegal immigrants, even if working illegally, still have deductions taken from their checks for federal and state taxes among others. Most immigrants never file income tax returns at the end of the year. Where do you think all that money goes? Uncle Sam’s pocket! Do you think employers not know that hiring illegal immigrants is against the law? Why do they do it? Because they know who will do the work for minimum wages, sometimes even less; because you (citizens, “legal immigrants,” whites, “americans,” your fathers, mothers, uncles,etc.) will not take the work these immigrants perform. Will you pick up tomatoes and other crops in the field under the intense heat? Will you wash dishes in restaurants? In other words, will you really do the “dirty” work that most of these immigrants take? I don’t believe so. If it were not for immigrants, which really forms a significant part of the basis of the U.S. economy, this country would be in worse shape than it already is. The reality of immigrant life is that immigrants can’t wait (as someone mentioned earlier. WAIT to come legally. WAIT you SAY? Would you wait if you were starving?). The forefathers of this country came here to escape the injustices of the British rule. The forefathers of this country came from an ocean away. But wait, the forefathers of this land were here before the forefathers of this country. Native AMERICANS were displaced; the conquest of the West came through non-sense ideas such as “manifest destiny.” Yes, California, Oregon, New Mexico, Texas, Nevada….. over half of the Mexican northern territory was unjustly lost to the U.S. I do not mean to alarm you my friends, but Hispanics/Latinos (words that the U.S. have made up to classify us immigrants from Latin America) have become the largest minority of this country…Soon i assure you, maybe not within your lifetime, but your of your kids, we will no longer be a minority- we will in fact be the majority. Politically speaking, maybe it is not possible for Mexicans to regain the territory that was stolen from them, but theoretically speaking, Mexicans and other groups will regain what once belonged to them. In the mean time, I can say thanks to this country I have survived. I as an immigrant feel a deep sense of gratitude for this country, for the many friends that I have made. I came here to work and be part of this “system” like many of my paisanos want to do. We are here to work, we are no terrorist. We are here, and here we will stay. I Doubt there is anything that you could do to drive us out or keep us from coming. Do some research to see how much of our tax money is going to the border patrol, and ask yourself if it is effective? NO, it is not. The U.S. government knows they need immigrants, the Border Patrol is just a cover, to make people feel that “something is being done.” If it were in fact effective, they would completely stop immigrants from entering the U.S.. Think people from Latin America risk their lives trying to cross the Arizona Desert or the Rio Grande, and yet you have terrorist coming in with “legal” visas and permits. Who is doing their job and who is not? We are just here to survive, that’s all.

  7. west says:

    “Hispanics/Latinos (words that the U.S. have made up to classify us immigrants from Latin America) have become the largest minority of this country…Soon i assure you, maybe not within your lifetime, but your of your kids, we will no longer be a minority- we will in fact be the majority. Politically speaking, maybe it is not possible for Mexicans to regain the territory that was stolen from them, but theoretically speaking, Mexicans and other groups will regain what once belonged to them.”

    Dude, why do romanticize mexico. This territory wasn’t stolen it was bought. And when we bought it it wasn’t a thriving gem of prosperity for your country. Americas turned it in to the lucrative place it currently is. Yet you wanna take it back. You come over here to reap the benefits yet instead of assimilating into americans you remain mexicans working in America. Three times the birth rate, twice the rate of welfare and only 40% graduating high school. Dude you guys are drastically increasing the lower class and killing the lower/middle class. The seperation between the haves and have nots is getting huge. Soon we are going to be left with this enormous lower class and no tax base to subsidize them. I don’t blame illegals at all and if I was in their shoes I’d be here to. I’m not anti latino nor am I anti immigrant but I really believe we have to take an honest look at what is happening here. Do we really want this to become the third world bankrupt state of California. The silent majority doesn’t want this, yet everyone is too pussy to say anything about it. Ethnic pressure groups and the elite left have got the noose on us so tight that We’re probably fucked.

  8. Amy says:

    I think you are all forgetting a very important group here. What about the people who were brought to the U.S as children and have grown up to become adults who are illegal immigrants? They had absolutely no say in where they were going to live, but their parents brought them to America. Now, they can’t get a driver’s license or have any privilages, and never once have they actually committed a criminal offense! It is very hurtful to call someone a criminal when all they have ever done is just tried to live a decent life. Some people are not as fortunate as others. Why should we continue to forbid these people, who have spent ten or fifteen years in America, who call America their home, who don’t even remember living anywhere else, the right to live like everyone else?

  9. Politicalxicano says:

    Anne Haight, you have no clue of what “illegal immigrants” mean to this state of California and in the bigger picture, the United States of America. We are the ones picking the food you eat, we build the cars you drive, and to top it all off we clean your houses. These “illegal immigrants” are not free loading, they are not a burden to your tax dollars. You cannot hold us down. You’ve tried it before with proposition 187, which didn’t pass because this state needs us. You tried it during the 60’s and many organizations were founded to rise above this hatred. MEChA was formed in order to get our children into college. The Brown Berets emerged as a powerful militant force, which the media nor anyone talks about anymore for “security” purposes. United Farm Workers was a powerful union that emerged as one of the greatest if not the greatest union this country has ever had. Why do you think these organizations were so important and why they were so successful? I don’t think they were successful because we are a burden on your tax dollars, I think they were successful because the people realized that they needed “illegal immigrants” for this country to survive. The people that realized this took a big step out of igorance and maybe you and your supporters will too. I’d be happy to debate with you. Just email me.

  10. Daniel E says:

    Dude (West), I am not trying to romanticize Mexico…But if you knew your history, you would know that the amount the U.S. paid for all the territory they gained was like a slap in the face to Mexico and its citizens. Some historians (U.S. historians included) have very frequently referred to the Mexican-American war as one of the most “unjust.” Do you read about history? If you do, who writes the books? Think about it. If anything, The U.S. was the one romanticized at the time with crazy ideas such as that of “Manifest Destiny” or “Conquering the Frontier.” Not going to far, can you tell me about the Battle of the Alamo (that famous cry, “Remember the Alamo”) with all of the Anglo heroes like Jim Bowie, William Travis, Houston, and others (some of them who by the way, were criminals)? Can you tell me the significance of that Battle? Or better yet, the significance of the entire Mexican-American War? Now, can you tell me who romanticizes what? It had not been long since Mexico had gained its indepence from Spain, and then they got hit from the U.S. The U.S. took advantage of it, knowing that Mexico was in pretty bad shape coming off a bloddy war for independence. In reality, Mexico did not even have a well established army at the time. By comparison, the U.S. had much more capital and better technology and weapons. The irony in the whole Mexican-American War was that Texas (Mexican territory at the time) had initially welcomed Anlgos to live there in a friendly way. This was clearly Mexican territory, then a few Anglo “cowboys” decided to make Texas its own little country (because they didn’t like Mexican laws; because they couldn’t have slaves in a country that had abolished slavery by then)…knowing that they would have back-up from Washington. What a coincidence then that Texas was annexed to the States, right? Big coincidence… And you tell me I’m trying to romanticize Mexico! Dude, whether we are in this country legally or illegally, I can assure you most of us hold jobs that help sustain the economy of this country. We’re not freeloading in this country….we’re not here for that. Illegal immigrants also pay taxes that many do not claim at the end of the year (who pockets that money?) Like I mentioned earlier, don’t you think employers know that it is against the law to hire illegal immigrants? Why do they still do it? Because they know we work! We do the hard work for this country. We pick up the tomatoes for your salad! We do the heavy work that most wouldn’t even think of doing! Is it my fault that capitalism is not the ideal form for an economy? No! Ironically, the most powerful country in the world has the most noticeable disparity between rich and poor. It is my right to remain Mexican or Colombian or Puerto Rican or Dominican or whatever I wish to be in the U.S. This is “the melting pot” is it not? I can have my Mexican or Puerto Rican or Colombian culture (part of my history…part of me because that is where I come from)…and I can still be American. By the Way…I am still American if I am Mexican, Guatemalan,Colombian, etc….It’s just that I’m not a “white” American. How funny isn’t it? American=being from the U.S. (but who?)…Isn’t there Central America, South America? We’re all Americans! You don’t know me, so don’t tell me that I have not assimilated, that I don’t want to be part of this country…but I can still be from another part of the world and still be “American.” Dude, don’t generalize… You probably don’t even know why our High School drop-out rates are what they are… Do you think an immigrant kid has the same opportunities as a native or white American to succeed in school? Do you not think that we are singled out and targeted by racism and discrimination? Do you think that immigrant kids have middle class or rich parents to provide everything for them? There are many issues involved with education, and you would never understand them. Many of these drop-out students leave school for financial reasons, because they need to help their parents in some way. You just wouldn’t be able to understand the lives of these people.

  11. Ralph says:

    This whole drivers license for illegal immigrants is nonsense. I am against it.What the government is tryin to do to the latinos and many other forms of immigrants is give them a bone to chew on and keep them busy. We all now the almost 2million immigrants that are outthere are here to stay. what we need to do is legalize them give them legal residency(“green card”). we need to do this in order to erase all those doubts that are outthere about our national security and other questions. 1/3 of our workforce here in california is workin illegal, we need the cheap labor in order to be the 5th largest economy in the world. I say if we are goin to do it, we need to do it right.

  12. Anne Haight says:

    I agree with Ralph that legalization needs to be a much easier and more friendly process. The INS is a schizoid organization, that welcomes immigrants with one hand and deports them with the other. This leads to mistrust of the INS in general, making it difficult for honest immigrants to get the help they need to become citizens.

  13. NO NAME says:

    I THINK YOU ARE FUCKING RACIST AND YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG BY NOT WANTING TO GIVE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DRIVERS LICENSES(YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE). WHO DO YOU THINK? PICK THE FRUIT AND THE VEGETABLES ON YOUR TABLE? WHO DO YOU THINK WASHES THE DISHES AT THE RESTAURANTS WHERE YOU EAT? IF YOU DISAGREE WITH IMMIGRATION SO MUCH, WHY DON’T YOU GET ALL OF THE IMMIGRANTS OUT OF THIS COUNTRY AND HAVE WHITE PEOPLE DO ALL THE HARD JOBS THAT LATINOS DO? I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHITE PEOPLE PICKING FRUIT AND VEGETABLES ON A HOT SUMMER DAY, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHITE PEOPLE WASHING DISHES AT RESTAURANTS, CLEANING THE BATHROOMS, AND SCRUBBING THE FLOORS AT RICH PEOPLE’S HOUSES LIKE MANY LATINO LADIES DO THEIR HOUSEKEEPING AND MANY OTHER JOBS TO EARN A DECENT LIVING. ALL THESE PEOPLE WANT IS TO WORK AND EARN A DECENT LIVING, INSTEAD OF WORRYING ABOUT ALL THE IMMIGRANTS YOU SHOULD WORRY ABOUT ALL THE CORRUPTION THERE IS IN THE U.S., WHERE ARE THE COPS WHEN YOU NEED THEM? THERE IS SO MUCH CRIME GOING ON AND NOT A SINGLE COP PASSES BY THE STREETS WHEN WE NEED ONE.

  14. Anne Haight says:

    I THINK YOU ARE FUCKING RACIST

    blah blah blah. So what else is new.

    Used to be that the word “racist” was enough to send people into a backpedaling panic. I guess a new qualifier is necessary. Except that “fucking” has kind of lost its punch, too. Overall not a very effective insult.

    AND YOU ARE TOTALLY WRONG BY NOT WANTING TO GIVE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS DRIVERS LICENSES(YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE).

    Um, yeah. Last time I checked my name was Anne Haight.

    And am I wrong? You haven’t advanced a single reason to show that.

    WHO DO YOU THINK? PICK THE FRUIT AND THE VEGETABLES ON YOUR TABLE?

    Field workers, I would assume.

    WHO DO YOU THINK WASHES THE DISHES AT THE RESTAURANTS WHERE YOU EAT?

    Um, restaurant employees?

    IF YOU DISAGREE WITH IMMIGRATION SO MUCH,

    You left out the word “illegal” there. Or are you hoping I will not notice that?

    I have never once said I didn’t like immigration.

    WHY DON’T YOU GET ALL OF THE IMMIGRANTS OUT OF THIS COUNTRY AND HAVE WHITE PEOPLE DO ALL THE HARD JOBS THAT LATINOS DO?

    You left out a word again.

    “Hard jobs”, eh? My job isn’t hard? Someone who doesn’t speak English fluently and only has a 6th grade education couldn’t possibly do my job. I can always pick tomatoes, but you (for example) clearly wouldn’t last five minutes at my desk.

    Not all immigrants are Latino, dingus. Seems like I run into an awful lot of Asian, Canadian, and European immigrants.

    I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHITE PEOPLE PICKING FRUIT AND VEGETABLES ON A HOT SUMMER DAY, I WOULD LOVE TO SEE WHITE PEOPLE WASHING DISHES AT RESTAURANTS, CLEANING THE BATHROOMS, AND SCRUBBING THE FLOORS AT RICH PEOPLE’S HOUSES LIKE MANY LATINO LADIES DO THEIR HOUSEKEEPING AND MANY OTHER JOBS TO EARN A DECENT LIVING.

    Actually I think the term should be “Latina” when talking about women.

    And what does this have to do with anything I’ve said on the issue of illegal immigration?

    ALL THESE PEOPLE WANT IS TO WORK AND EARN A DECENT LIVING, INSTEAD OF WORRYING ABOUT ALL THE IMMIGRANTS YOU SHOULD WORRY ABOUT ALL THE CORRUPTION THERE IS IN THE U.S., WHERE ARE THE COPS WHEN YOU NEED THEM? THERE IS SO MUCH CRIME GOING ON AND NOT A SINGLE COP PASSES BY THE STREETS WHEN WE NEED ONE.

    Can’t help but notice another word missing.

    Well, you know, there are people starving by the hundreds of thousands in North Korea. So obviously that means we should be paying attention to that and allowing illegal immigrants to do whatever the hell they want.

    *rolls eyes*

  15. CHOSEN ONE says:

    Yes, Illegals should get driver’s licenses. Nothing against the mexican community, but they are the ones who work most of the LOBOR jobs out there. Lets be real how many citizens actually work the fields, constuction jobs, janitorials, etc. Not very many. All were giving them is a little bit more freedom to have access to the NECCESSART things that we need to survive. We dont need to be citizens or legal resdents but we do need driver’s licenses. First of all transportation is neccessary.

    Plus I’m tire of all you STUPID IGNORANT WHITE PEOPLE AND EVERYONE AGAINST THIS BILL. IF a terrorist really wanted to bomb the US he’d do it with or with out a driver’s liscense. To all you FUCKS who oppose this bill you dont even know the situations behind these people. IF these immigrants actually had a better life back to at there homeland, do u actually think they would actually leave there country? Common now And for all you who say it’s not fair for other WELL “FUCK YOU” because society is not fair anyways. Do you actually think the government is fair. BULLSHIT! Politics is a bunch of bullshit and these fucken politicians are only looking out for there own ass. Do you actually think that the Gov. cares about YOU? common now!

    Plus for all of you who say illegals should go back to there countries then DON’T EVER STEP FOOT INTO ANY COUNTY BECAUASE THAT WOULD MAKE YOU A BUNCH OF STUPID IGNORANT HYPOCRITS. The United States is a hypocritcal county. They use other countries for there resources and have established government offices in other countries and is allowed to go to any country because your a CITIZEN. Then the GOVERNMENT and the FUCKEN PEOPLe of this society have the fucken nerve to say “GET THE OUT OF HERE YOU DONT BELONG IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA” Well FUCK ALL OF YOU WHO THINK like this because you dont fucken belong in any fucken part of this world. What if you stoopid WHITE AMERICANS were to step foot in Mexico and the government threw you back out. I’m sure you stoopid fuckers wont like that. Let’s make a better example how bout EUROPE. The world would be a better place if all you stupid racist as motherfuckers didnt exist. The truth is you stoopid bitches still have racism embedided in your brain. SHIT that has been passed down from your ancestors.

  16. Haight Speech says:

    More Brickbats On Illegal Immigrants and Driver’s Licenses

    See the TrackBack at the end of this post for the original blog entry and comments section that spawned this. Italics sections are the commenter and my replies are in normal text. Yes, Illegals should get driver’s licenses. Nothing against…

  17. Not Mexican says:

    I am not Latino. I came to this country legally. I was hard, but that’s what you do — you abide by the laws of the country where you want to go. Mexicans are NOT a special group of people. They dont deserve special treatment over other nationalities — whether they be asian, african or european. They should not get special status for breaking the law. If they do, those boats full of Communist Chinese, Vietnamese, Afghan and Pakistani people must be given the same rights as illegal latino immigrants.

    by the way, that would be a dangerous proposition indeed.

  18. Macaco says:

    I was reading a newspaper the other day where Grey Davis explained why he authorized this bill. Basically he said it was to allow immigrants to drive to 1) work 2) school and 3) the hospital.

    Ok that’s fine… but one certain aspect that everyone is overlooking still remains…

    THEY ARE ILLEGAL! Meaning they SHOULD NOT be here. They should be able to work and force thousands of AMERICANS to go on welfare because immigrants are cheaper! They shouldnt be able to go to school! What are they doing getting free medical? Not even hard-working americans recieve such treatment and all they have to do is run accross the border at night and get a free heart transplant.

    I am not saying that I hate anything non-american. I am saying that there is no reason for illegal immigrants in the USA. As of this moment in time, the USA is the EASIEST country by far to enter into legally. Arnold Swartzennegar said so. There is no reason.

    Nothing good will come out of allowing this law to pass.

    You know it’s a sad situation when you watch Grey Davis’ rallies and see the mexican flag instead of the US flag. What is this country coming to?

    PS – If this bill passes, the only good thing that will happen to the state of California in the future is when it breaks off and falls into the pits of the ocean floor.

  19. Angie says:

    I’m a 14 year old girl, and i feel really sad about all of this. One thing that im going to say that even the president said it,”Without immigrants in the USA this country wouldnt be as powerfull as it is right now.” Immigrants dont came here just to fool around they come here to progress, to became better would help them in their progress.And you know that the driver license would be a way of identifying not an immigrant a person.It doent matter the color of the skin or their nationality no matter what they are still humas with a lot of dreams of becaming better.
    Hope you guys understand.

  20. Sharon says:

    The recently passed law enabling illegal immigrants to obtain a driver’s license in California goes into effect on January 1st, 2004. However, there is an effort to collect signatures that would call for a referendum of the law to be put on an election ballot for the residents of California to decide by a vote whether they want the law or not. In order for the referendum to be put on the ballot though, they must collect more than 373, 000 signatures of registered voters who oppose the law and turn them into the state by December 7th.
    Since 1996, most states have required applicants to produce evidence of their legal status before they could obtain a driver’s license. However. with the implementation of the Homeland Security Act, immigrants are no longer able to even renew their licenses without a green card, or some other paperwork from the BCIS.
    The problem that we face here, is that everyone will be hit even harder in their pocketbooks with the prospect of thousands upon thousands of illegals driving without licenses or insurance. As many are already aware, the current insurance situation in the United States is out of control.
    The vast majority of illegals couldn’t care much about politics, one way or the other, unless it affects them directly. Since there is no track record of them attempting voter fraud why should they begin now? The stories of voter fraud that have made it to the news, primarily, have been about Americans trying to vote more than once. The illegal immigrant workforce contributes to the economy by way of taxes, menial jobs (that no American wants to do), and in some instances, create jobs for everyone, including Americans .
    Don’t let shortsightedness get in the way of the big picture… it’s all about money!

  21. LUIS ALLEGRO says:

    HOW MANY AMERICAN CITIZEN,AND LEGAL INMIGRANT LOST THEY JOB,BECAUSE ILLIGAL INMIGRANT FROM MEXICO TAKE OVER,THEY,JOB,DO YOU NOW HOW MANY MEXICAN ENTER ILLEGALY FROM THE BORDER 1000 PER DAY,YES ONE THOUSAND PER DAY,FIVE THOUSAND FOR 7 DAYS AND 30000 EVERY 30 DAYS. DU YOU SEE,MEXICAN IN THE 50 STATE,DO YOU KNOW WHAY NOW?

  22. heaven leigh says:

    I have just recently moved to Oregon after spending the last eleven years in California. I am mortified that this could ever have been more than wishful thinking. I think it is reprehensible that this is acceptable. Think of the consequences… imagine a fatal accident a family of four coming home from a Thanksgiving dinner and never seeing the vehicle coming that hits them dead on… all but the mother die and i just want to know who is responsible? How do you hold someone accountable who is not legally supossed to be here for any extended time. So what i am gathering from this is that it’s California’s responsibility? So the state of California is the one who that grief stricken mother has to sue? (as if money will ever give her any semblance of happiness now that her family is gone) If California is so hard up for money because in the end i think its just a matter of the illegals getting fake driver’s licenses anyways so California has the chance to make all that added revenue so they jump on it and think of nothing of what devastation is yet to come. I just thank God that i no longer live in a place where i have to swallow this kind of idiocy. I understand America thinks that it has to be the savior of all other people, to a certain extent that is good that we are able to lend a helping hand, but suddenly more and more i see that we are basically ruling other nations from our pedestal.Where is the priority? and to whom is this helping? Not the legal American driver’s, they see no MONEY out of this and yet there are forced to share the road with people who have no regard for the law or the land.
    Wake up and think of the whole cycle not just the financial advantages for the much indebt state of California.

  23. Dan E says:

    Heaven leigh: You are so short minded….I’m glad people of California don’t have you as a fellow Californian…Who said immigrants don’t have respect for the law or the land? They are here simply to survive. Obtaining a drivers license requires the licensee to pass a test on the rules of the road, and is also given a road test. If they pass (meaning that they have demonstrated knowledge of the rules of the road and exhibit good driving skills), then they are given their drivers license. Does that make sense to you? A good driver can be white, Mexican, African American, etc., just as they all can be bad drivers. But what you are arguing (that immigrants don’t have respect for the law is too plain for me). There are whites or natives of the U.S. who don’t give a rat’s ass about respecting the law. I thank God too that you left California.

  24. Citizen T says:

    Anne, I agree with you on the issue of ILLEGAL immigration. By the way, I have to say – after reading the reader comments – it’s interesting to see that ignorance is flourishing. (Chosen One, No Name, et al who cannot write…If you cannot put a sentence together properly, you should consider keeping your opinion to yourself until you learn English.)

    I am not a latina nor mexicana ni soy una parte de la Raza… I find my feelings toward illegal immigration are quite ironic and contradictory for me because I work with Latin American immigrants in California and have advanced degrees in Spanish although I am white.

    Illegal immigration in California is not just an issue of drivers licenses and auto insurance. California’s schools are failing to educate their students and the children of illegal immigrants play a huge part in the fact that California has one of the worst public school RESULTS in the nation. Take a look at the numbers everyone (US Census, NAWS 1997-1998, CA School Report Cards). California’s health care system is facing devastating costs for picking up the tab for illegals who use hospital services (LA Times, Summer 2003). That problem is so bad that a couple of hospitals in LA have already closed their doors because of a lack of funds! Social Services are being sucked dry by illegals who receive a variety of services (which, by the way, leaves legals out in the cold when they need help and there are no funds left).

    I am the fluent Spanish-speaking ‘guera’ in a STATE and FEDERALLY SUBSIDIZED childcare program that pays for childcare for families of farmworkers – the majority of which are illegals. My program, like the drivers license thing, is a perfect example of how California (and the US) rewards illegal immigrants. There are no programs like mine for legal citizens who are the working poor (believe me, I’ve done the research)….. I could go on and on. Regardless of where one stands on immigration, illegal immigration is an issue in California – and the nation – that must be dealt with NOW. Unfortunately, it is a political hot potato because politicians on both sides of the fence don’t want to lose votes by having an opinion and the voting public remains silent until they arrive at the polling place.

    I’m wondering….what ideas do you have, Anne (or your readers), as to how to even begin to remedy the current situation in this state?

  25. 'Red' says:

    Wow! Everyone is so right. You have all – each one of you brought up such thought worthy points. I’m writing a paper on this very subject as a class assignment, and I am torn, quite honestly. I wasn’t, until I read this entire posting of pro’s and con’s. What a precarious situation we will be in, come January. God bless us all with the wisdom to handle this in a way that will serve the greater good.

  26. Red says:

    On second thought, it occured to me that the debt for the wars that the Bush’s have incurred upon the whole of the U.S. would pay for licenses and far more. I’m disgusted by politics in general. It’s obvious, I’m sure that I am not erudite, but, my mother always told me that during difficult times a person shows he is really made of, hence, who he really is.

    Perhaps I am a single cry in the wilderness, but I see myself and all other persons as existing on borrowed time, land, and materials upon a planet. So that no matter how geographical maps and boundaries are drawn, nothing will ever change the fact that we are each existing on borrowed time, land, and materials upon a planet. So, if you were dying tonight, what would you spend your time caring about right now.

    Don’t get upset about anything beyond your control (I had to learn this in a very painful way through the loss of two children). As often as you can be grateful for your blessings and all the good things you have going for you because nothing can buy time. So use it wisely.

    Try to deal with the fact that all material goods are meant to be used one way or another. Tax money, food, it doesn’t matter they are only good for what little comfort they provide…that’s all. It’s meant to be recycled. It’s a daily challenge, but let go and let live, stop caring so much about money.

  27. mario lopez says:

    my names mario and Im an american citizen but both my parents were “illegal aliens”(how i hate that word with a passion)who came here for a better life for themselfs and their children. Im also writing a college paper on this topic.
    Im for the this law that gives Illegal immigrants a drivers license not just because im Latino but because Iv lived,meet, and worked with these people that you blame for your bad economy. These are some of the most hard working people iv ever meet and to assume that they are here just here to bring the economy down is just wrong. I can understand why some of you might think we are crazy for being illegal and having the balls to demand certain rights, But this is the land of milk and honey.
    citizen t mentioned that there isnt programs for the legal working poor. I dont think that is right either, we should come up with a program to help them out also. Maybe we should use some of that money we are using one war to help the people living in the u.s. but thats another topic.
    i guess i went of the subject but remember that these illegal immigrants also come here for a better life for their children. I grew up in some poor areas but im trying not to become another bad statistic. If you think my parents brought this country down ill help bring it back up.
    future paramedic. and maybe a historian.

  28. Chris Branson says:

    I just have one quick thing to say after reading all of this and it is about the overly-used excuses of…..who do you think does all the labor? whop do you think picks your fruit? blah blah blah….. The only reason that “whites” or “americans” are never seen doing that is because the illegal immigrants stole their jobs. Before we had such a problem of illegal immigrants who did all the farming? Whites. Once all the illegal immigrants came to america they were looked down upon by everyone because they came here illegally (and if it is ILLEGAL then that does make them a criminal whether you like it or not), and they didn’t have sufficient education levels to even work at mcdonalds. So, what else was there left to do? They decided to steal all the jobs from the hard working farmers of america and they began working at the feilds.

  29. Chris Branson says:

    Also, another quick note. Now that illegal immigrants can obtain licenses, all of us other californians have another problem. Soon the other states may not like the idea that many illegals have licenses in california and they will not allow a california drivers license to account for any form of identification. We will be forced to obtain a special form of identification to show that we are here legally. Some states, I assume, might even go to the extreme to not count the california drivers license to be a valid for of drivers license in many other states.

  30. Lindsay says:

    Hi. After carefully reading everyone’s comments, I just want to say that I think both sides can agree that there is in fact a problem and a solution is needed very badly. I think that waht we need is to find a way to give the people that are coming to America to survive a better way to become legalized, and at the same time, probably first, we need to solve the problem of unemployment in the United States. It isn’t fair that people that are legal US citizens should lose jobs to illegal (note the ILLEGAL part) immigrants. I’m not saying I know how, but I think instead of worrying about who is right, all of the energy needs to be focused on finding jobs for people that are here now aneed them. THEN, the doors should be reopened to immigration, and we can go from there. I DO understnad that people are coming here illegally because they have no other choice, however, those people need to understand that they aren’t here legally, and those that are need to survive as well. Just because the government makes it easy for people to imigrate here illegally, perhaps because of the severity of their situation, does not mean that they should receive the priveleges that legal citizens do. It doesn’t seem fair, but it is the only way to handle the situation right now, keeping in mind that AMERICA needs to put AMERICA first, not other countries.

  31. AMERICAN INDIAN says:

    any you are so wander full you selff are illegal;;; i leff of you you are such a bitch and you know it,who cares if the illigall people are around, if you dont like to fuck with them dont doit,maby you want them so bedly but like you dont speek spanish you cant get any by the way my grofen was illigal and fuck the same bifore and ofter and if you want to get intell politiks, get out and be a governor, if the imigrants can be governors wy you dont? i gest bicause you are a looser.: and all wat you have is your poisones tonhg, i dont spall rigt as you know, but who cares..i am in a free contry,abru one is from some where.so dont fuck with other only bicause your fathers get here first, yest thank god they dont drown in the sea wan the come illigaly from urop..???hahahahah you are illigall like any othere one,,if you dont have and indian green car.you are such a jock…..hahahahahah

  32. mysteryman says:

    ur all fuckin right wing fags so shut up

  33. left wing environmentalist says:

    who cares about this stupid issue. why don’t you argue about somethin important like how the hell we now have a governator or how to save the earth

  34. Kentucky boy says:

    *Illegal* immigrants should not be catered to. Period. I have nothing against legal immigration (my grandmother came over from Ireland) or other ethnicities, but this is too much. Now that Arnie is going to be the governer, it seems that the problem shall be rectified. Or, at least, returned to the status quo. However large a part of the work force they may be, however many children they may have fathered whilst in our country’s borders, and however long they have lived here, there remains but one thing to say: They are CRIMINALS. In some way or another, they should be made to pay for that behavior, and this in no way is racist or discriminatory. Rather, quite the opposite, if we catered to the Mexican population alone, then we would be guilty of favoring them over all the other nations in the world. No race should enjoy a status any more exalted than another, and changing the laws from what they are now would be the first link in a chain of events leading to results that I cannot fully comprehend.
    As to the “Mexicans taking over” and references to the 19th century war between our countries, this is a completely irrelevent line of thought. Though I do not have high opinions of our reasons for entering that conflict, the fact is that the land that is now the Southwest United States was gained, in a technically lawful manner, by America. There is nothing left to dispute, and I feel that any bitterness regarding that topic is energy better placed in another area. That said, I have a speech to give on this topic in an hour, so I will now be going. Good day to you all.

  35. Adam says:

    I have read the comments on this page. There are many valid points. I can see that people feel strongly. It is a mistake to allow emotions lead us to say nasty things about each other. For those who think this issue is about hate towards you or latinos, etc. I am sorry. If you think “White” people are against you, I am sorry. Why is it always about race? There is no end to race. Why is skin color so big with everyone. It is no disguise for who you are- what you are inside. That is what counts. That is no cliche. It is the truth. I wish people could listen more to truth. The things that matter most in life are not hate, not evil speaking, not wealth, not cars, not jobs. They are love, family, charity, hard work, forgiveness, improvement, learning, sharing.

    Anyone who classifies Mexicans, Americans, Iraqis or any people, is in danger of being grossly wrong. There are good people in all lands. Unfortunately not all lands are equal in recourse, consumption etc. And more unfortunate is a country where people desire things that are good, but cannot realize them not because the country is lacking the recources, but because their government is holding them back, or some group is against progress and against good.

    If you think there is no evil, think again. There are forces of good and evil in this world. Evil strikes women and children. Evil leads to abuse. Greed is evil. There is much evil. Good is often dismissed. Good is just coincidence. Good, that is too often forgotten. But if you don’t see enough good, the first place you should look is at yourself. What good have you done? What good are you capable of? What can you do for others?

    It is true, there is much corruption in government. It is true, there are many nice immigrants that are illegal who have good intentions. That is definately not in question with me. I have worked with them. I ahve seen them. Even so, I know that there are thousands and more that I don’t know, that still are these good intentioned people. But, good intentions is not good enough for everything.

    The fact is that giving liscenses to illegals is contrary to law. If legal, it would be an illegal law in my opinion. I don’t know that I can envision a good answer for this matter. This is not a perfect world. But in my opinion, thsi illegal lisence issue is not even close to the answer. I would think it better to fist think about making it easier for good illegals to get citizenship, and ensuring that fraud, not only by illegals, but legals also, is curtailed. Fraud is ridiculously bad in America. It occurs in volumes beyound measure in this country.

    As for making laws, it is no easy task. Who has every tried to propose a bill? Who has tried to sit on a committee and debate and negotiate something that is agreeable to the varying minds who will vote upon it? It is not easy. This country is special. I am sick of people not being grateful for this country. I am sick of people bad mouthing it and trying to distort the fact that this country is a gift. Yes it was fought for, yes it was taken, but you know what? It never belonged to any man in the first place. You could say it belonged to the Native Americans, or to the Mexicans, but where did they get it? Who did they take it from? Who made this land. We are all living on land we do not own.

    Have you ever thought about this? For everything you have, you can be grateful to someone else for helping you get it. Anyone who claims to have accomplished something all on their own is mistaken. The point I am trying to make is: Why have so many people forgotten about God? Why do we remember him in times of trouble, times of tragedy, then when things get better, we forget Him? I suppose it is a natural characteristic of man. There is more to life than nature though.

    If man would learn to obey God’s laws, there would be less need for the laws of man. If things re to get better for people, there are two ways to try. The good way, and the bad way. There is less and less of the in between. It is time to start choosing. If you think this is ramble, maybe some of it is., But I don’t think I am too far off. This is coming from my heart and my mind, not just from one. It makes sense to me in both places.

    Anyway, I know the issue being discussed here is driver’s licenses for illegal immigrants, but I could not help write this way after the feeling I got from reading others comments.

    Just as a note for those who are thinking anything contrary: God does not teach his children to hate. He is happy when we love. God is love. He gave us His Son to show us how to live. Unfortunately many of those principles have been forgotten and distorted. But the truth can be found. Look for it. Don’t stop until you find it.

    And for those who dimiss this, or despise what I say, I am sorry. I am also sorry when some people choose to invite words of hate and refuse words of God. The successes of this country have long since been credited to him by those making the greatest sacrifices. Those who try to say that things like slavery etc were the intents of this country and blah blah, it is nonsense. Chalk it up to the mistakes of men.

  36. Anne Haight says:

    left wing environmentalist:

    Save the earth from what, exactly?

  37. Anne Haight says:

    > The only reason that “whites” or “americans”
    > are never seen doing that is because the
    > illegal immigrants stole their jobs.

    Actually I doubt that very much. The fact is, your average middle-class white teenager from Marin would never take a job like picking food in fields, even if it were offered to him.

    Jobs like that, and working at fast food places, janitorial work, and so on, are low-skill or unskilled jobs that do not require a higher education. Many of them don’t even require that you speak English. That’s why so many non-English-speakers (the majority of whom tend to be Mexican immigrants, both legal and illegal) take those jobs.

    They are filling jobs that otherwise would not be filled. The employers would have to raise the wage to attract labor, thus raising all costs across the board and making everyone pay more for things connected to those jobs (such as the menu prices of fast food, the cost of having your house cleaned, the cost of your groceries).

    Also, if those jobs attract people who are greatly overqualified (due to the money), it deprives the rest of society of productive work that these people could be doing with that higher education and/or skillset. Everybody loses.

    But if people with very poor skills take the jobs, they get an income, and everybody gets less expensive goods (including their families, for those of you who can’t make the connection). Being employed also gives them experience and money to further their education if they choose, making it possible for them to advance to more skilled work.

  38. Anonymous says:

    you are not being fear with me people live them alone!

  39. acelaw says:

    The mis information on the pro illegal side is amazing, you believe your own lies ,lets look at the facts.
    Thus do we get in the habit of talking about illegal immigration in economic rather than in moral terms. But consider the situation from a moral perspective. Do we really expect hard-working youths from central Mexico to work 30 years in construction, hotels or the fields without marrying, having children, losing jobs or getting hurt? And how can such workers without legal status, education or mastery of English support a family on $10 an hour when most native Americans cant do so on $20? Will we continue to shrug and say, At least the money is better than in Mexico,or, None of our own people will do the work,or, They are going to drive anyway, so lets give them drivers licenses all the easy platitudes that justify the current chaos?

    Unemployment is high and rising in California, but we are told that even more illegal workers from Mexico are needed. Can it really be the case that the free market can no longer operate to attract American workers through rising wages even assuming an absence of a pool of unskilled labor? Meanwhile, many who ought to know better champion the employers right to hire whomever he chooses, and assure us that Mexican immigration poses no more of a problem for the U.S. than nineteenth century Italian immigration as if they are unaware that multiculturalism did not exist in our schools in the nineteenth century, that we do not share an adjacent open border with Italy, and that Italian immigrants did not flood our country unlawfully as part of the national strategy of the Italian government. Nor did they cause this

    VDARE.COM – http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/policy_cost.htm
    October 21, 2003
    National Data, By Edwin S. Rubenstein
    Immigration Policy Costing American Workers $2,600 A Year
    The 1995 findings of Harvard economist George Borjas [George Borjas, “The Economic Benefits from Immigration,” Journal of Economic Perspectives, Spring 1995] were confirmed by the National Research Council’s 1997 report The New Americans: essentially all the increase in Gross Domestic product [GDP] brought about by immigration is captured by the immigrants themselves, in the form of wages. Virtually no benefit accrues to native-born Americans.
    (And once transfer payments like welfare, education and healthcare are factored in, immigration becomes a net cost—for example, over $1,000 in annual extra taxes per native-born household in California. Americans are financing their own dispossession.)
    Even less publicized: the Borjas model reveals the true economic consequence of immigration: a massive redistribution of wealth within the American native-born community—basically, from labor to capital, because of immigration’s impact on wages.
    The key variable: the rate at which native-born wages fall as the total number of workers rises—the so-called “price elasticity” of labor. Borjas estimates that each 10% increase in immigrant workers reduces native wages by about 3.5%. About 14% of employed workers in 2002 were immigrants. So the reduction in native wages attributable to immigrants that year was approximately 4.9% (35% of 14%).
    As our reader told his dinner companions, it’s true that immigrants don’t do work Americans won’t do—they just do it for less.
    But, more importantly, immigrants do indeed do one dirty job: make it easier for Americans to exploit each other.
    I’ve recalculated this immigration impact on the basis of the latest government data. This is how it came out:
     Net economic gain from the immigrant presence to native-born Americans, before transfer payments: just 0.2 percent of GDP (that is, two-tenth of one percent!) in today’s 10.4 trillion economy — that comes to a mere $84 per native-born American.

     Native-born capital-owners’ gain as a result of immigration: about 3.1% of GDP, or $323.8 billion. This goes to employers and, for example, upper-income owners of stocks and employers of servants.

     Native-born workers’ loss as a result of immigration: about 2.9% of GDP —$302.9 billion in a $10.4 trillion economy, or a remarkable $2,578 for each native-born worker every year.

    Remember, these are averages. Unskilled native workers lose far more than the 4.9% average wage loss. Black Americans in particular are big losers. But recent research shows that even college graduates, once thought immune to immigrant competition, face wage reductions. [See: George Borjas, “The Labor Demand Curve is Downward Sloping: Reexamining the Impact of Immigration in the Labor Market,” NBER, June 2003.]
    There are far fewer owners of capital than there are workers in the U.S. The economic benefits of immigration are concentrated in the elite. The losses widely dispersed among ordinary Americans.

    There are estimated 5 million+ illegal immigrants in California. They account for at least 15% of the state’s population. Children of these illegal immigrants, technically not immigrants anymore (because they are not foreign born) constitute perhaps the largest single drain of California budget. Here are the figures. According to Laura E. Hill and Hans P. Johnson of the PPIC (Download PDF file), “between 1987 and 1991, total fertility rates [expected number of children per woman over her lifetime] for foreign-born Hispanics [in California] increased from 3.2 to 4.4”, which more than doubled 2.1 replacement fertility rate for native Californians. (Per Steve Sailer, this illegal immigrant “baby boom” was triggered by the amnesty of 1986.) As a result, the percentage of illegal immigrants kids in public schools is more than twice their percentage (15%) of California’s population, that is roughly 30% (well over 60% in highly populated areas of Southern California), simply because on average they had twice as many kids than natives. Since the K-12 total state enrollment is close to 6 million, that would yield an estimated 1.8 million of illegal aliens’ children in California public schools. With average annual cost per student equal to $9,100 (“What the deficit could buy” Orange County Register, Dec 22, 2002), the estimated budget expenditure for educating children of illegal aliens is over $16 billion each year, almost half of current budget deficit. Think of it as a cost of derailing of Proposition 187 by Gov. Davis and his cabinet; despite what some bleeding heart liberal morons say, there is nothing in the U.S. law that would mandate FREE education of illegal alien children.
    But that’s just a beginning. According to national statistics compiled by the Center for Immigration Studies, an average immigrant collects over his lifetime estimated $1,200 more in welfare and other benefits than he pays in all taxes. (For illegals, who often get paid “under the table” so that they don’t pay taxes, and who are poorer and less educated than legal immigrants, the actual figure is – most likely – much higher.) That resulted in a total of $6 billion+ (low estimate) paid in welfare to the illegals under assumption that all the taxes they paid, if any, went back to California budget. Since a bulk of these taxes were used by the Federal Government, the resulting shortfall paid by the State of California was likely to be several times higher and to fall into a range of tens of billions of dollars. Add to that humongous (multi-million dollar) restitutions that were awarded by liberal judges to convicted drug traffickers and gang members after the evidence against them was deemed planted or otherwise inadmissible, and you will get the idea what happened to all the surpluses. They were recklessly wasted as if those who spent them were thinking “Easy come, easy go”.

    The price of the great Mexican exodus is a staggering transfer of wealth which continues to climb. Cheap labor is really not cheap at all. Taxpayers foot the bill for increased use of schools, public health, welfare, and new infrastructure. Employers are happy to get a large pool of compliant and inexpensive workers, but the workers pay little or nothing in taxes. When children arrive (at taxpayer expense), start getting food stamps, and then add to the numbers in schools, the cheap labor actually costs much more than the wages earned. But employers like the subsidized labor, Democrats salivate at the thought of the potential votes, and Republicans are afraid of alienating anyone.
    Statistics from the Weekly Standard, American Conservative Union and other sources illustrate:
    THE VERY HIGH COSTS OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.
    • Illegal immigrants cost $68 billion in annual welfare payments – equaling $1000 per taxpaying family. (Compared to the estimated $60 billion for the war in Iraq.)
    • The proportion of immigrants on welfare is 50 percent higher than native born Americans. (Legal immigrants are barred from welfare for 10 years.)
    • They are the sole source of school overcrowding. Educating their children costs $30 billion a year.
    • The cost of incarcerating illegal immigrants is estimated at $500 million a year. In the year 2000, there were 23,477 illegal immigrants charged with federal crimes.
    • Immigration costs U.S. born workers $133 billion a year in job losses.
    States are freeing prisoners, closing libraries, hiking college tuition, even halting prosecution of abusive spouses, while federal and state officials are scrambling to plug budget gaps that widen every day primarily due to illegal immigration.
    HEALTH CARE COSTS FROM OPEN BORDERS
    The Phyllis Schafley Report September 2002
    The big health-care debate in Congress last summer was over the wrong issue. Instead of threatening to bankrupt Medicare by forcing the taxpayers to buy prescription drugs for seniors, Congress should relieve the taxpayers and paying-patients of the burden of providing hospital care for illegal aliens.
    From Florida to California, illegal aliens show up at hospital emergency rooms and the costs are passed along to paying patients and to local taxpayers. The American Hospital Association estimates that the costs of bad-debt and charity care run into the billions.
    A Martin County, Florida, hospital has spent $900,000 (with no end in sight) caring for a Guatemalan illegal who appeared at the emergency room two years ago with a brain injury after an automobile accident. He has no money and no family, but somehow he has a lawyer who has successfully prevented deportation to Guatemala.
    A Jamaican illegal spent 17 months under care at the same hospital. After he ran up a bill of $500,000, he was finally sent home to Jamaica.
    St. Mary’s Medical Center in West Palm Beach treats one or two illegals a week and Delray Medical Center about 75 a month. Hospitals are required to provide care to anyone who shows up with a life-threatening condition.
    Rep. Mark Foley (R-FL) has persuaded the General Accounting Office to study the financial costs that illegal aliens impose on hospitals. He says “we need to remedy this problem before we can no longer afford to take care of Americans.”
    Many Arizona hospitals have to treat automobile accident victims of dangerous driving by what are called “people smugglers.” Two Tucson hospitals were stuck with treating a half dozen illegal aliens who were injured in a nighttime crash of their car traveling on the highway at 100 miles an hour.
    A San Antonio hospital treated victims suffering from dehydration after up to 70 men, women and children were discovered by police in a tractor-trailer rig at a truck stop. Another tractor-trailer rig loaded with 40 illegal aliens, two of them dead from suffocation, was found in July in Dallas.
    The Palomar Medical Center in Escondido, California, has been caring for a comatose Mexican illegal ever since he got drunk and was struck by a car in May. He can’t pay for the care, of course, but his lawyer is fighting his deportation to a Tijuana hospital.
    San Diego hospitals had to face the burden of caring for 31 accident victims (not counting the seven who were killed) when a van carrying illegals from Mexico and Brazil crashed going the wrong way on an interstate at night with its headlights turned off.
    Some aliens look upon an automobile accident as their entry ticket into the United States. They get treated at an American hospital and then may be released into no one’s custody, and no one has any figures on the numbers.
    Last year the taxpayers who finance Medicaid paid the hospital bill for 6,000 illegal aliens to have their babies in Colorado. This totaled $30 million, an average of $5,000 per baby. Those 6,000 births to illegal aliens are 40% of the births Medicaid paid for in Colorado. Those 6,000 babies immediately became U.S. citizens and qualified for all Medicaid services at a cost that is not even tabulated.
    To get immediate care, the illegal only has to say she is “undocumented.” Pregnant American mothers can’t avoid their birth-of-a-baby expenses so easily. Denver Health is asking taxpayers to approve a bond issue to pay for a bigger obstetrics unit. The present unit was built for 1,600 births a year but last year it handled 3,500.
    This Colorado information was reported by Al Knight of the Denver Post editorial board. He concluded with a fascinating comment: “There are many groups and interests that for one reason or another don’t want this information to be available or to be discussed.”
    He didn’t identify the “groups and interests.”
    Who they are would be a good question to ask your Member of Congress, along with why Congress isn’t doing its duty to protect Americans from the influx of illegal aliens.
    DISEASES ALIENS BRING INTO THE U.S.
    Scores of Americans have come down with the disease called West Nile virus, and more than a dozen have already died.
    The Louisiana Governor says his state “is an emergency situation.”
    Carried by mosquitoes, West Nile virus causes flu-like symptoms and a potentially fatal brain inflammation. There is no cure. Many horses have been infected.
    West Nile virus is a disease that comes from central Africa, and it was unknown in the United States prior to 1999. Now it has been found in at least 34 states. Even the pro-immigration New York Times reported (8-13-02): “The wide swath that West Nile has cut in just three years illustrates how vulnerable the United States is to imported diseases.”
    The Centers for Disease Control recently announced the deaths of the first American victims of Chagas disease.
    Chagas disease is caused by a parasite that is spread when a so-called “kissing bug” bites a human and then defecates while it feeds. The feces contain the parasite, which can enter the human either when the bitten person scratches the bite or from eating contaminated uncooked food.
    Chagas infection can lead to various disorders such as obstruction of the colon or esophagus, and is often fatal if untreated.
    The Chagas disease in the United States has been traced to a Central American immigrant. More than 16 million people are infected with the parasite in Central America, and health officials estimate that 100,000 Latin American residents in the United States now carry the parasite.
    Immigration officials are supposed to screen out immigrants who are carrying diseases, but of course there is no health screening for illegal aliens, who are coming into our country by hundreds of thousands (some estimates say a million) every year.
    Tuberculosis, which had been on the way to eradication in the United States, is now rising rapidly because of immigration. In California, the state health department reports that 75% of all TB patients were born outside the United States.
    When are the American people going to wake up to the diseases, followed by the costs to our health care system, that result from the massive numbers of aliens coming into the United States at the present time, especially from Third World countries?
    Instead of dealing with these existing health-care burdens, some members of Congress are trying to hit the taxpayers with even more costs for illegal aliens. They are trying to make illegal aliens eligible for in-state tuition rates at publicly funded colleges and universities.
    Texas, California and New York are already subsidizing these aliens who have broken our laws while discriminating against students in lawful, taxpaying families from the other 49 states. A student from Arizona, for example, pays four times as much to attend the University of California as an illegal alien.
    *** *** ***
    In-State Tuition: Stay tuned for this topic. State lawmakers in the “Open Borders” crowd, even though it’s barred by federal immigration law, believe you should pay for the college education of illegal immigrants. And there are many more things they want taxes dollars for to support illegal immigrants. (And it just doesn’t seem to matter what the immigration laws say.)
    This won’t stop until you let your elected representatives know you’ve had enough. Start emailing, faxing, or writing today. Illegal immigration is one of the most important issues our Nation will ever face. Don’t be silent. Your voice must be heard.
    *** *** ***
    MEXICANS TREATED IN U.S. COST MILLIONS
    from the Associated Press Dec. 30, 2003
    Texas – Ambulances regularly race across the bridges of the Rio Grande, bringing some of Mexico’s sickest to the nearest U.S. emergency room.
    Obligated by federal law, the hospitals provide the care and worry later about whether the billing addresses patients give them are accurate. Often the hospitals get stuck with the bill.
    Immigrant patients have inflated medical expenses for insurance companies, Medicaid and paying customers, officials say.
    One recent study by the U.S.-Mexico Border Counties Coalition, an American lobbying group, found U.S. border hospitals provided at least $200 million a year in uncompensated emergency care to illegal immigrants.
    Texas Republican state Sen. Chris Harris said he was shocked by what he called the “dumping” of Mexicans on U.S. hospitals.
    VDARE.COM – http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/tax_slavery.htm
    September 11, 2003
    National Data, By Edwin S. Rubenstein
    Immigration Causes A Quarter Of California’s State Budget Deficit—Or Eight More Days Of Tax Slavery
    Apparently no major gubernatorial candidate in California wants to criticize immigration. Amazing—because immigrants’ fiscal impact on California households is not only significant, but also unusually well-documented.
    Let’s put it this way. Every year, the Tax Foundation computes “Tax Freedom Day”—the day on which Americans get to stop working for the government and start earning money for themselves. It’s an ingenious way of expressing the average tax burden.
    National Tax Freedom Day is April 19. That means that, overall, Americans work an average of 109 days for government.
    But there’s a lot of variation between the states. The earliest Tax Freedom Day is Alaska: (March 30—89 days). The latest: Connecticut (May 9th—129 days).
    California is one of worst—it had the fourth-latest Tax Freedom Day among the 50 states in 2003. It falls on April 29th—which means 119 days of tax slavery for Californians.

    Measuring the cost of immigration is complicated. Legal and illegal immigrants have an alarming propensity to consume social welfare benefits, as my last two columns described. But immigrants (not always the same ones) also pay taxes. So, in theory, they could defray some or all of their costs. Measuring the gap between payments made to immigrants and taxes extracted from immigrants is critical. This is why the NRC study is so valuable.
    Here, rescued by VDARE.COM, are the NRC’s key findings (1996 dollars):
     Native-born Californian households paid $1,174 annually in federal, state and local taxes in a net subsidy to the immigrant presence in their state.

     Just in state taxes alone, excluding federal and local taxes, native-born California native-born households paid $895 annually in a net subsidy to the immigrant presence.

     California immigrant households received a net subsidy from combined Federal, state, and local programs averaging $6,145 in 1996. Immigrant households received an average $24,507 in combined Federal, state, and local spending. They paid an average of $18,362 in taxes.

     California immigrant households received a net subsidy of $2,632 from California state taxpayers. They received an average $4,973 in state spending and paid an average $2,341 in state taxes.

    Adjusting for inflation and growth in the immigrant population since the NRC report, we estimate California immigrants now receive about $9.3 billion more in state expenditures than they pay in state taxes. (See table)
    Conclusion: nearly one-quarter (24.5%) of California’s current $38 billion state budget deficit stems directly from immigration.
    Including federal and local spending, after adjusting again for inflation and foreign population growth, the total net subsidy to California’s immigrants amounts to $21.7 billion per year.
    Or, to put it another way, that $21.7 billion is equivalent to 6.6% of the combined Federal, state, and local taxes paid by California natives
    Steve Camarota, director of research for the CIS, dismissed many of the economic theories used to support an open-border policy.

    While some argue that Mexican immigration – legal or otherwise – is crucial to the economy, Camarota introduced statistical data showing that Mexican immigrants comprise nearly one-third of California’s population but account for approximately 3 percent of the state’s economic output.

    According to Camarota, California’s estimated population of more than 35.5 million people includes some 10 million Mexicans, 70 percent of who are in the state illegally and 65 percent of who have less than a high school education.

    “The idea that Mexican immigration is vital to the U.S. economy is simply false,” Camarota said.

    Next, Camarota noted that Mexican immigrants pay significantly less in taxes compared with native Californians but use disproportionately more welfare benefits than those born in the state.

    Camarota’s data showed that the average taxes paid by Mexican immigrants in California amount to about $1,535 per year, while native-born Californians pay $5,600 in taxes.

    While Mexican immigrants pay one-third the taxes of native Californians on average, they also consume roughly three times more welfare, Camarota said.

    The CIS data showed that 41.5 percent of Mexican immigrants used “major welfare programs” like Medicaid and food stamps, while those same welfare programs were used by only 14.2 percent of native Californians.

    “There’s a very big difference between what Mexican immigrants are supposed to pay in taxes and what natives are supposed to pay,” said Camarota. “This fact, coupled with their extremely high use of public services, means that there’s a very high cost for cheap labor.”

    While the panelists illustrated the encroaching problems and their causes, few detailed solutions were offered.

    “What should we do? I think most people support immigration, we want immigration, and it always enriches the culture. But we want it in California under legal auspices,” said Hanson.

    The IRCA amnesty has cost US taxpayers 241 billion and counting

    What Lessons, If Any?

    In ten years the United States has paid out $156.7 for the! direct and indirect costs of the legalized population, but has received a little more than half that back in taxes ÷ $78 billion. That figure would be substantially higher if expressed in 1996 dollars. The total fiscal deficit of $78.7 billion amounts to a government subsidy to each member of the 1987 legalized population of $29,148. A subsidy of that amount would have enabled most amnesty seekers to establish a farm or business and remain in their home countries.

    http://www.cis.org/articles/1997/back197.htm

    Summary

    The federal government began legalizing almost three million illegal aliens 10 years ago, on May 5, 1987, wary of the fiscal liabilities of opening more public assistance programs to a population with high needs and low taxpaying power.

    To ease the burden on the states, Washington closed some programs to the newly legalized for five years and reimbursed the states nearly $3.5 billion for some of their aid costs.

    Was the concern of Congress, the White House, and many state and local leaders justified? A review of the evidence a decade later confirms that legalization indeed carried a high fiscal price tag ÷ a total 10-year cost of $78.7 billion ÷ with the indirect and downstream costs still accumulating. In the ten-year period ending in 1996, the amnestied population:

    Accounted for an estimated $102.1 billion costs in current dollars in twenty federal, state, and local assistance programs and services.

    Paid total taxes of $78 billion, for a ten-year fiscal deficit of $24 billion in the public assistance and services portion of the budget.

    These are estimates of the direct costs only. There were, and will continue to be, significant indirect costs associated with the legalization of 2.7 million persons:

    Job Displacement: About 1.66 million legalized workers, 70 percent of them unskilled, displaced an average of 187,000 citizen and settled immigrant workers from jobs each year. Costs of public assistance to those displaced totaled $9.9 billion for the decade.

    Citizen Children: Women in the legalized population had an estimated 1.25 million U.S. citizen children between 1970 and 1996. Public education and three major public assistance programs to citizen children 18 and under amounted to $36.1 billion in the decade since amnesty.

    School Costs of Undocumented Children: Remaining in the households of legalized population, or joining them subsequently were some 400,000 illegal immigrants by 1996, up from 177,000 in 1987. Costs of providing public schooling for them was $8.56 billion.

    Five-Year Prospective Education Costs: Public education costs for U.S. citizen children of legalized aliens are projected to claim an additional $29.4 billion in the five years from 1997 to 2001, mostly from state and local budgets.

    Total direct and associated indirect costs of the legalized population after taxes reached $78.7 billion in current dollars for the decade.

    Large numbers of the legalized began to naturalize starting in 1995. According to the U.S. commission on Immigration Reform, 1.4 million spouses, children, and parents of amnestied aliens now on immigration waiting lists, will gain immediate entry as relatives of citizens. The costs of public education for the young people of this population and medical care and income support for the 900,000 aging parents is expected to be formidable.

    And where oh where will they end up

    VDARE.COM – http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/winner.htm
    August 27, 2003
    National Data, By Edwin S. Rubenstein
    And the Immigrant Welfare Winner Is…
    In my last column, I noted that the 1996 welfare reform had failed to end the scandal of immigrant welfare dependency—which means American taxpayers are still being compelled to finance their own dispossession.
    Now the news you’re all waiting for: who won the latest Immigrant Welfare Sweepstakes?
    Nevertheless, on the basis of what we have (Ta-Ra!):
     First place: Immigrants from the Dominican Republic! Nearly three in five (58.7%) Dominican immigrant households received at least one means-tested program in 2002.

     Runner-up: Immigrants from Mexico! Over one in three (35.7%) Mexican immigrant households are on welfare. About a quarter (24.9%) of illegal Mexican immigrants receive benefits on behalf of their U.S.-born children.

     Dead last: less than one in thirteen (7.3%) immigrant households from Canada receive benefits

    From 1930 to 1981 we had only 15million immigrates to this country, this is when what you see today was built, 10 million plus under skilled ,under educated citizens that we still have to this day did these jobs for a wage you could at least live on. There is no jobs we won’t do ,but they is jobs now we can’t do because you can’t pay your billson $6.00 per hour, of course you illegals don’t pay your bills as evidenced by your failure to pay your hospital bills , of course you load those on the backs of USC, you send 30 billion per year of our wages out of this country, hurting our country and its citizens who plan on staying here , just not reaping the benefits of others hard work , so lets tell it like it is , you’re here to strip mine our country and steal what is not yours to take. Your weak as a culture and your country is a failure because of it ,but yet you blame others for your failure and rationalize your behavior which is immoral to stay the least, your ask for human compassion but you show NONE to those that your affect with your selfish greed. The very freedom you seek you destroy with you actions, you will loose in the end as Karma has a way to even things out. Raciest explain this
    http://americanpatrol.com/RECONQUISTA/FU_stillmexico000118.html
    WHAT SOME “LATINOS” THINK OF THE UNITED STATES

  40. Dan says:

    aceclaw:
    Ignorance makes you BLIND! If only for one day, one week, immigrant workers and others decided to stay home and not go to work, this country would literally crash. There are both pros and cons about immigrants in this country. But lets face it, immigrants make up the base of labor in this country and you can’t deny it or turn a blind eye to it. I can’t imagine a day in America without immigrant workers (legal or illegal). I also suggest you get your facts straight too.

  41. acelaw says:

    Dan get a clue
    Interesting logic, the majority of illegal /legals have settled in four western states, so who is doing the jobs we won’t do in all these other cities, small towns etc?Proudly those 10 million under skilled ,undereducated USC that have been doing these jobs for years.

    Get my facts straight? I see no facts offered by you to back up your claim.I offer facts with socures .

    Fact is that from 1930 to when this mass legal/illegal immigration started in 1985 we only had 15 million people immigrate here in 50 years . So gee who did the jobs before 1985????You would think they built what you see today WRONG. Between 1930 and 1985 we have had the most prospers time in this country so far and we only needed 15 million immigrates in 50 years to do it.We have taken in an immigrant population of 33.1 million +in less 20 years , historically unprecedented. It is more than twice the number (13.5 million) reached in 1910 during the previous great wave of immigration.

    To think that they play such a big part in this countries well being is totally ridicules.

    While some argue that Mexican immigration – legal or otherwise – is crucial to the economy, Camarota introduced statistical data showing that Mexican immigrants comprise nearly one-third of California’s population but account for approximately 3 percent of the state’s economic output.
    YOU MIGHT WANT TO READ THAT TWICE TO UNDERSTAND IT

    THEN YOU CAN READ THIS , ITS HARDLY A BLIP ON THE RADER SCREEN MY FRIEND , LESS THEN 10 BILLION BUT THEY COSTS U.S. TAXPAYERS 70 BILLION PER YEAR, THE MEDICAL BILLS THEY DO NOT PAY WIPES THIS OUT , GET A CLUE
    The current wave of mass immigration is not benefiting Americans overall. “All of the available estimates suggest the annual net gain is astoundingly small,” writes Professor Borjas, “… less than 0.1 percent of the Gross Domestic Product.” Roughly: less than $10 billion in a $7 trillion economy.

    Note carefully what Professor Borjas is saying here. Sure, those immigrants who work do raise overall GDP. But the bulk of that increase goes to the immigrants themselves, in the form of wages. The benefit to native-born Americans, after everything is taken into account, is infinitesimally small.

    Current mass immigration is not benefiting Americans overall — but it is transforming their country. For nothing.

    The idea that Mexican immigration is vital to the U.S. economy is simply false,” Camarota said.

    Next, Camarota noted that Mexican immigrants pay significantly less in taxes compared with native Californians but use disproportionately more welfare benefits than those born in the state.

    Camarota’s data showed that the average taxes paid by Mexican immigrants in California amount to about $1,535 per year, while native-born Californians pay $5,600 in taxes.
    While Mexican immigrants pay one-third the taxes of native Californians on average, they also consume roughly three times more welfare, Camarota said.
    T
    he CIS data showed that 41.5 percent of Mexican immigrants used “major welfare programs” like Medicaid and food stamps, while those same welfare programs were used by only 14.2 percent of native Californians.

    There’s a very big difference between what Mexican immigrants are supposed to pay in taxes and what natives are supposed to pay,” said Camarota. “This fact, coupled with their extremely high use of public services, means that there’s a very high cost for cheap labor.”
    While the panelists illustrated the encroaching problems and their causes, few detailed solutions were offered.
    “What should we do? I think most people support immigration, we want immigration, and it always enriches the culture. But we want it in California under legal auspices,” said Hanson.
    Hanson said it would require “legal, measured immigration.” However, he emphasized that “something” must be done to protect the borders

     Net economic gain from the immigrant presence to native-born Americans, before transfer payments: just 0.2 percent of GDP (that is, two-tenth of one percent!) in today’s 10.4 trillion economy — that comes to a mere $84 per native-born American.

     Native-born capital-owners’ gain as a result of immigration: about 3.1% of GDP, or $323.8 billion. This goes to employers and, for example, upper-income owners of stocks and employers of servants.

     Native-born workers’ loss as a result of immigration: about 2.9% of GDP —$302.9 billion in a $10.4 trillion economy, or a remarkable $2,578 for each native-born worker every year.

  42. joey flips says:

    I AM A FILIPINO AMERICAN, IM JUST CURIOUS. MEXICANS AND LATINOS DO ALL THEY CAN JUST TO CROSS THE BORDER AND LIVE HERE IN AMERICA AS ILLEGALS. OK SO MUCH HAS BEEN SAID THAT THEY DO THE ODD JOBS, BUT THEY TAKE SO MUCH ALSO IN TERMS OF WELFARE. ALSO THEY SEND THEIR MONEY BACK TO THEIR OWN NATIVE COUNTRY, IN SHORT THEY ARE NOT HELPPING THE ECONOMY OF AMERICA BY USING ALL THE MONEY THEY GET HERE. INSTEAD THEY SEND A PORTION OF IT OUT, ENRICHING THEIR OWN NATIVE COUNTRIES.

    LASTLY, IF THESE MEXICANS AND LATINOS REALLY LOVE TO LIVE IN AMERICA. THEN HOW COME THEY DONT WANT TO TALK AND LEARN ENGLISH, FILIPINO’S DONT FORCE AMERICANS TO TALK TAGALOG BUT WE LEARN THE NATIONAL LANGUAGE OF OUR NEW FOUND LAND.

    IF U MEXICANS LOVE TO LIVE HERE, TALK IN ENGLISH

    NAIINTINDIHAN BA NINYO MGA GAGO?????

  43. ACELAW says:

    LASTLY, IF THESE MEXICANS AND LATINOS REALLY LOVE TO LIVE IN AMERICA. THEN HOW COME THEY DONT WANT TO TALK AND LEARN ENGLISH, FILIPINO’S DONT FORCE AMERICANS TO TALK TAGALOG BUT WE LEARN THE NATIONAL LANGUAGE OF OUR NEW FOUND LAND.
    IF U MEXICANS LOVE TO LIVE HERE, TALK IN ENGLISH

    JOEY
    PASTE THIS URL IT MIGHT GIVE YOU SOME INSIGHT AS TO THE FORCES WORKING HERE.

    The Mexican Conquest of America
    By Kenny Felsher

    American Border Patrol
    http://www.americanpatrol.com/RECONQUISTA/FelsherEssayRecons030205.html

  44. Alexis says:

    I don’t see why they all want to come here if they still fly the Mexican flag in the U.S.If they love their country so much go back we don’t want you or need you, especially if you are illegal.

  45. cassey says:

    ok im an senior in high school,my debate is on this topic,one thing i dont understand is why are we only focusing on the mexican race there are more races in california.my father is from mexico he is now a U.S. citizen,he also came here to have a better life now hes very sucessful in what he does he worked to be sucessful to he went to school.in every race there are succesful people,also illegal immigrants arent taking illegls jobs b/s i dint think there would be any U.S. citizen that would like to work under the hot sun in the winter and in the cold during the fall picking anything with layers of clothing on,shit,cause i wouldnt want to do that.just imagine this issue if Ceasar Chavez was alive.people do need a high school diaploma to work in fast food.

  46. A.M. says:

    Current California law requires that all driver’s license applicants provide a valid Social Security number and proof of lawful presence. Proponents of SB 60 say current law forces many immigrants in California to drive unlicensed and uninsured, undermining the Department of Motor Vehicles’ mission to ensure public safety and limiting law enforcement’s ability to effectively perform its duty.
    SB 60 WOULD IMPROVE PUBLIC SAFETY and accountability by maintaining current security standards, including thumbprints and other positive identification, and requiring applicants to submit a valid Social Security number. But it would allow those who do not have an Social Security number to provide an individual tax identification number instead. The measure would allow all California motorists to obtain a driver’s license and insurance only after they pass driving and written tests, submit proof of identity and comply with all other licensing requirements.
    Info found at http://www.unionvoice.org/alert-description.tcl?alert_id=8122
    Haight, I really believe that you need to become more educated on a subject before you begin to spread inaccurate information. According to you, the Matricula Consular card is issued to anybody. Here are the facts: In order for an illegal immigrant from Mexico to obtain this card, he or she must be a citizen of Mexico and provide proof. A birth certificate must be shown in addition to another form of proof of residency with ones picture. In addition, it is not issued to any national who requests one. If a person has a criminal background of any kind, they are immediately denied this card. You are definitely wrong when you comment that they can be used to gain access to a Federal facility. Just think about it, if a person is illegal, the last place they want to go is a Federal facility because they are afraid of deportation. You are uneducated on this matter and I would suggest that you do become educated before commenting on such a controversial issue. Not being educated leads to ignorance.
    Many people may jump to the conclusion that denying a driver’s license to illegal immigrants is the way to go, but we need to think about the major consequences of this. There are millions of illegal immigrants driving on our public roads today. These are people who don’t have car insurance. Since they are unable to get a driver’s license, they are not held responsible. If a person without a driver’s license and hence, car insurance hit you, you are the one who pays. All they have to do is go back to Mexico and they get away with not being accountable for anything. You are the one who is left without a car and paying for medical bills. PROTECT YOURSELF by requiring that illegal immigrants be held responsible when driving in this country. Support SB 60 and support illegal immigrants getting driver’s licenses.
    Information for any Latinos reading this on “The Grand Latino Economic Boycott” can be found at http://www.savesb60.com

  47. Anne Haight says:

    Most of my assertions regarding who can get a Matricula Consular card and what they can be used for comes from the Federal Government’s own analyses, so it’s really to them you need to be directing this criticism. I’m sure they would be delighted to be informed of their ignorance.

    And anyway, you’re a bit late with your support of SB 60, considering that it was repealed earlier this week.

  48. The Smart One says:

    ANNE IS OBVIOUS YOUR STUPIDITY REACHES NO LIMIT. AFTER READING YOUR MONOTONOUS RACIALLY INSULTING ARTICLE(OR WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL IT) I CAME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT DID NOT DO YOUR RESEARCH. I END MY COMMENT, BY SAYING AGAIN THE YOUR IDIOTIC STUPIDITY REACHES TO LIMIT. I RECOMMEND THAT TO SEARCH FOR IMMEADIATE PSYCHOLOGICAL HELP, BECAUSE OBVIOUSLY YOU MENTALLITY IS NO MENTALLITY, YOU IDIOTIC UNINTELLIGENT STUPID GIRL, I END THIS COMMENT BY THE SECOND TIME BY ENJOYING MYSELF BY SAYING THAT YOU ARE MENTALLY INCAPABLE. IF YOU WISH TO FURTHER DEBATE YOUR STUPIDITY POST A COMMENT(TRY TO MAKE IT NON-IDIOTIC PLEASE)AND I’LL ANSWER TO ALMOST TO HUMAN INTELLIGENCE COMMENT AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE. AND AGAIN(SINCE I KNOW MENTALLY RETARTED PEOPLE, LIKE YOU, HAVE SHORT TERM MEMORY) I MUST REMIND YOU OF YOUR IDIOTIC STUPIDITY.

    P.S. I CHOSE NOT TO TALK ON THE ISSUE OF ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS BECAUSE I DIDN’T HAVE TIME TO GET IN TO THE ISSUE OF YOUR STUPIDITY AND IMMIGRATION, BUT ON A SATURDAY NIGHT I JUST MIGHT COMMENT ON IMMIGRATION, BY THE WAY I DO KNOW THAT YOU’RE UNINTELLIGENT OPINION IS INCORRECT. DON’T TRY TO E-MAIL ME, BECUASE, WHAT EVER STUPID COMMENT YOU MIGHT TRY TO SEND WON’T BE RECEIVED BY ME, OR ANY BODY ELSE. AGAIN I RECOMMEND YOU TO CONSIDER A PSYCHOLOGIST

  49. Anne Haight says:

    Smart One decided to post his comment 3 times. I deleted 2 of them. Comment spamming is not permitted and your IP address has been blocked. Asshat.

  50. Javier Kazuyuki says:

    Hello it is a pleasure to know it I I am Mexican I have my legal visa, my question is as I can remove my driver’s license of Californian so that I want to study in that state

  51. Anne Haight says:

    Sorry, Javier, I’m not sure what you’re asking.

  52. smart says:

    I CAN SEE THAT YOU DIDN’T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO GET INTO A SENSEFUL ARGUMENT ABOUT YOUR STUPIDITY, IN THE COMMENT BOX IN YOUR RACIAL ARTICLE ABOUT “ILLEGAL” IMMIGRANTS.

    YOU STUPID GIRL, I WASN’T SPAMMING, I CORRECTED THE GRAMMATICAL ERRORS, OOPS, I FORGOT, YOU DON’T HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE TO RECOGNIZE ERRORS.

  53. smart says:

    how dare you make fun of javier’s accent, what a savage girl

  54. Anne Haight says:

    How does somebody have an accent when they type?

    You were spamming. And I’ve blocked your second IP. Or do we actually have two asshats comment spamming? Whatever.

    I see you’ve discovered the spellcheck feature on your word processor.

    You still don’t make any sense. To quote your Lord and Master, Foamy Squirrel: “I’m sick of having to whip out an Idiot To English Dictionary to figure out what the fuck you’re trying to say.”

  55. sm says:

    How do I answer a mentally incapable’s question, such as Anne’s?

    Well first, I must be slow.

    Second, don’t make the answer to confusing, because it will only lead to more questions.

    Third, treat them like who they are, IDIOTS.

    Question 1: How does somebody have an accent when they type.

    Answer to question 1: The person speaks with an accent while typing.

    Question 2: Or do we actually have two asshats comment spamming?

    Answer to Question 2: When you use the vulgar word “asshats” I’m guessing it’s a way of insulting and referring to me, well no there is only one intelligent person speaking, me. And there is one “it”, Anne, which is not only semi-moron but quite an insolent little idiotic stupid bitch, with an I.Q. below zero(if it has been invented yet).

    Statement: I see you’ve discovered the spell check feature on your word processor.

    Comment of the Statement: As a matter of fact I discovered the spell check feature on my word processor a few years ago. You’d be bewildered to know that this comment box doesn’t have the “spell check” feature.

    Statement: You still don’t make any sense. To quote your Lord and Master, Foamy Squirrel: “I’m sick of having to whip out an Idiot To English Dictionary to figure out what the fuck you’re trying to say.”

    Comment of Statement: I’m not sure what religion has to do with any of this(that’s guessing that you were talking of religion). Please correct all grammar errors, it makes it difficult for such an intelligent person as my self to read such low stupidities.

    Again let me remind you of your stupidity, and idiodicy, you stupid, worthless, piece of nothing, brainless girl.

  56. sm says:

    I must also comment on the statement that you wrote to Javier.

    Statement: Sorry, Javier, I’m not sure what you’re asking.

    Comment of Statement: There isn’t supposed to be a comma after “Sorry” you stupid girl.

  57. Anne Haight says:

    Statement: Sorry, Javier, I’m not sure what you’re asking.

    Comment of Statement: There isn’t supposed to be a comma after “Sorry” you stupid girl.

    Yes, there is. See section 3 here for information:

    with an I.Q. below zero(if it has been invented yet).

    The IQ or the zero? I’m pretty sure the zero was discovered rather a long time ago.

    Question 1: How does somebody have an accent when they type.

    Answer to question 1: The person speaks with an accent while typing.

    “Who is V’Ger?” “V’Ger is the Creator.” “Who is the Creator?” “The Creator is that which created V’Ger.”

    Comment of Statement: I’m not sure what religion has to do with any of this(that’s guessing that you were talking of religion).

    Foamy says you are, and I quote, a “self-important, fucking little bastard”.

    Again let me remind you of your stupidity, and idiodicy, you stupid, worthless, piece of nothing, brainless girl.

    What? You don’t think I’m good enough to be a whole nothing, instead of just a piece?

    Hmm. A whole nothing. How does one divide nothing into pieces? Ah! Ah! Twisting my brain!

    Ooh, pizza. *runs off*

  58. Anne Haight says:

    cassey says:

    ok im an senior in high school,my debate is on this topic,one thing i dont understand is why are we only focusing on the mexican race there are more races in california.

    The short answer is: Because it’s mostly the Mexicans who are the shit disturbers (to use a phrase). Other immigrant groups in California mostly come here legally, get their green card or their citizenship, learn to speak English, and get jobs and/or go to school and become productive citizens.

    Another main reason is the sheer number of Mexican immigrants. They outnumber other groups by a good amount. Thus they have a strong lobby presence in the government. Illegals cannot vote, but legal residents can, and there is a certain amount of solidarity within the Mexican-American community. And there is always, of course, money involved.

    We also have large numbers of groups like Koreans and Vietnamese, but in general they are productive citizens and not shit disturbers.

  59. DotNetNoob says:

    lol. reading all of you idiots aruge like middle school kids is very entertaining. i’m from taiwan and come here legally.

    illegal immigrant SHOULD NOT be rewarded with driver license. period!

    what the hell does illegal mean? Can you idiot look it up? http://www.m-w.com (Merriam-Webster website)

    so…CA going to say fuck the law. let’s give people who commit the crime a free get out of jail card? well…hell, let’s reward people who rob the bank, commit murder, drunk driving, rape a fucking get out of jail card!

    let’s take it even further. why do we need the laws? bunch idiots, a law is a law. it’s a agreement, we agree to, in order to protect ourself and make everyone play nice in this country. yup, i’m really looking forward a lawless country. where every crimial are rewarded!

  60. sm says:

    Anne: Yes, there is. See section 3 here for information:

    Correct way to say it: Yes, there is. See section 3 for information.

    with an I.Q. below zero(if it has been invented yet).

    Anne: The IQ or the zero? I’m pretty sure the zero was discovered rather a long time ago.

    The IQ or the zero what?

    Anne: “Who is V’Ger?” “V’Ger is the Creator.” “Who is the Creator?” “The Creator is that which created V’Ger.”

    Anne demonstrates enought stupidity with these idiotic questions and answers.

    Anne: Foamy says you are, and I quote, a “self-important, fucking little bastard”.

    I told you to make your comments non-idiotic, but I guess it’s quite impossible to teach an idot to make non-idiotic comments.

    I’m in a hurry, so I can’t further comment on your stupidities, but let me remind that you are a stupid, worthless, piece of nothing, brainless girl.

    P.S. I’m going to assign you the job of cleaning up my “spamming”.

  61. Fermin P. Ortega says:

    SCHWARZENEGGER SHOULD GIVE DRIVER’S LICENSE AND SSN TO ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS

    California’s new governor, Arnold Schwarzenegger, should give a driver’s license and Social Security Number (SNN) to illegal immigrants. Given a driver’s license and SSN to illegal immigrants, would benefit both government and immigrants. Although the opposition argues that they’re not productive contributors to the economy, and that giving driver license would be a threat against national security, the positive aspects of the claim outweigh the negative. It would allow immigrants to prove their contribution to the economy. California would have safer roads and government would have more flexibility keeping track of criminals. A driver’s license and a SSN would also allow thousands of immigrants to excel and to pursue their dreams.

    With an SSN illegal immigrants would be able to pay taxes, and to prove their productive contribution to the economy. Immigrants pay taxes, and contribute to the economy as much as non-immigrants do. When they buy groceries, cars, houses they pay taxes. Likewise, people working illegally, still have deductions taken from their checks for federal and state taxes among others. Most immigrants never file income tax returns at the end of the year, because then they apply for a job they use someone else’s SSN. The benefits (money) most of the time goes to whoever owns the SSN and/or to Uncle Sam’s pocket. Money those immigrants cannot claim and that they are willing to sacrifice in order to survive in this country. With a SSN however, immigrants would be forced to file income tax returns at the end of the year and government would have a better control over these taxpayers.

    Another reason why Schwarzenegger should give a driver license to illegal immigrants is that, both the roads of California and the government would benefit. Transportation has become a necessity in California, when we go to work, to school even to go to buy groceries we need a means of transportation. Given a driver’s license to immigrants, California would have well-trained, and capacitated drivers in the road and accidents would be less likely. Government would also benefit, by gaining ease access to criminal’s files by means of DMV records. This would give government the choice to determine whether to expel these individuals out of the country or not.

    Finally, giving driver’s license and a SSN to illegal immigrants would give them the chance to success and to live the American dream. For years I’ve seen how jobs have been taken away from immigrants, how the chance to success, and to progress have gone out of their hands, because of their lack of driver’s license. For example, my brother who wants to be a trucker recently bought a commercial vehicle (truck) to tow 26,000 pound trailers that unfortunately can’t drive for lack of a Class A Commercial Driver License. With a driver’s license however, my brother and thousands of other immigrants in similar situations would have the opportunity to excel and pursue their dreams

    Although some people don’t want to accept it, immigrants (including myself) came to this country to live, to work and be part of the “system”. Therefore, Arnold Schwarzenegger should definitely give driver’s license and a SSN to illegal immigrants so as to make California roads a safer place to drive, and let immigrants to be productive to the economy, and let them pursue their dreams.

  62. Anne Haight says:

    Fermin,

    This is what we call “unclear on the concept”.

    Illegal immigrants are illegal. They bypassed the immigration process for entering the United States, and should be appropriately punished. They should not be rewarded for violating the law.

    You want to give an SSN to illegals, too? How fair is that to all the immigrants who came to this country the right way, who went through the process to get their visa, apply for a green card, get their legal residency or citizenship, and learn to speak English?

    You would immediately reward illegal immigrants with the fruits of citizenship and deny the same to the people who came here legally? How dare you. How dare you endorse giving preferential treatment to criminals and people who didn’t work for their accomplishments.

    Do you think someone who manages to sneak across the border and gets rewarded with an SSN and a driver’s license values it the same way as someone who busts their butt to earn it?

    The reasons illegal immigrants have for entering the country illegally are not relevant. Whether they have jobs is irrelevant. Whether they pay taxes is irrelevant. Whether they speak English, obey the rules of the road, etc. is irrelevant.

    It doesn’t matter why they’re coming here. They have to wait their turn and do it the right way like everybody else. Giving them a prize for successfully breaking the rules is stupid, for reasons that don’t require explanation.

  63. Javier Kazuyuki says:

    Diculpe por la traduccion que hice…

    mi pregunta es…

    puedo sacar una licencia de manejo siendo mexicano???

    que es lo que necesito???

  64. Kyle (not Kyle Haight) says:

    If illegal immigrants dont work, who will? The national unemployment rate is 5.9% as of October 2003. Approxomately 6% unemployment is considered essential frictional unemployment. Without this gap there would be no job openings, keeping people from swithching jobs. So we have an equalibrium of jobs and labor, which is why the nation is pulling out of the recession. If illegal immigrants are expelled from the country, there will be no one to fill their spot. You say we need to kick illegal immigrants out, but you fail to acknowlege the negative impact that said policy would have on the economy.

    Point

    We need immigrants, like it or not

  65. Anne Haight says:

    I don’t speak Spanish very well, so is there someone else who can translate Javier’s question? Alta Vista’s translation doesn’t shed any light on it (Diculpe by the translation that I did… my question is… I can remove a driver’s license being Mexican? that it is what I need?)

    I think what Javier is asking is whether he can obtain a California driver’s license, being Mexican. If Javier is an illegal resident of California, and is a Mexican national, the answer to that is no, since that law never took effect, and was repealed by the California legislature last month.

    A citizen or a legal resident alien, however, is allowed to apply for one (pending a passing score on the driver’s test). There is also the ID Card, which looks similar to a driver’s license but does not grant the privilege of driving a vehicle. It’s used to prove identity and age. Again, these are issued only to legal residents.

  66. JB says:

    So many words…so little wisdom or understanding.

    The issue is not NEED – the issue is not WANT –

    The issue is the LAW –

    Illegals are…ILLEGAL! They are criminal trespassers.

    Immigrants are legally-permitted, proper residents of the country to which they have emigrated. Illegals are NOT residents – they have NO resident or citizenship rights.

    Illegals can be expelled at any time, without notice and without any legal process beyond determination of identity…and, said determination of identity can consist of the ASSUMPTION of illegal statue in the absence of any proof of resident or citizenship status.

    Illegals have NO right to vote…

    NO ability to hold elective office…

    NO entitlement or access to public services, beyond representation by, and access to, an official representative of their country of origin…

    NO legal right to work or live in this country…

    And NO legal ability to become permanent legal residents or (obviously) citizens.

    Whenever and wherever discovered, they may be apprehended, physically confined without bail or hearing rights until a court has determined their status, and expelled to their country of origin without further legal process.

    Arguments/statements regarding illegals’ abilities, conscientious behavior or character, or the possible/probable relative essentiality of their presence to the conduct of productive labor, are irrelevant, under the law.

    Among many, many other privileges of legal residency and/or citizenship denied to them, illegals have NO legal access to the privilege of a driver’s license. This is as it should be.

  67. JB says:

    Sorry…that “legal statue” should be “legal status”.

  68. Anne Haight says:

    “Legal statue” conjures up an interesting mental image, though. Like a big, granite scales of justice. 🙂

  69. Patty says:

    Wow! Why can’t everyone have a say on this and argue for either side without insulting the person who wrote it? It’s the issue you should be challenging. Focus, people. Focus!

  70. acelaw says:

    Kyle
    Hope this helps with your lack of facts , cheap labor show me where.

    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-golden22dec22.story
    MICHAEL HILTZIK / GOLDEN STATE
    Clearing Out Bad Data on Illegal Immigrants
    Michael Hiltzik

    So here’s the bottom line: The total the state spends on illegal immigrants is no more than $4.6 billion a year, with CalWorks being a judgment call. This is a substantial amount, but clearly not enough to account for all of the state’s budget gap, which is running $8 billion to $12 billion annually.

    The current wave of mass immigration is not benefiting Americans overall. “All of the available estimates suggest the annual net gain is astoundingly small,” writes Professor Borjas, “… less than 0.1 percent of the Gross Domestic Product.” Roughly: less than $10 billion in a $7 trillion economy.

    Note carefully what Professor Borjas is saying here. Sure, those immigrants who work do raise overall GDP. But the bulk of that increase goes to the immigrants themselves, in the form of wages. The benefit to native-born Americans, after everything is taken into account, is infinitesimally small.

    Current mass immigration is not benefiting Americans overall — but it is transforming their country. For nothing.

    While some argue that Mexican immigration – legal or otherwise – is crucial to the economy, Camarota introduced statistical data showing that Mexican immigrants comprise nearly one-third of California’s population but account for approximately 3 percent of the state’s economic output.

    According to Camarota, California’s estimated population of more than 35.5 million people includes some 10 million Mexicans, 70 percent of who are in the state illegally and 65 percent of who have less than a high school education.

    “The idea that Mexican immigration is vital to the U.S. economy is simply false,” Camarota said.

    Next, Camarota noted that Mexican immigrants pay significantly less in taxes compared with native Californians but use disproportionately more welfare benefits than those born in the state.

    Camarota’s data showed that the average taxes paid by Mexican immigrants in California amount to about $1,535 per year, while native-born Californians pay $5,600 in taxes.

    While Mexican immigrants pay one-third the taxes of native Californians on average, they also consume roughly three times more welfare, Camarota said.

    The CIS data showed that 41.5 percent of Mexican immigrants used “major welfare programs” like Medicaid and food stamps, while those same welfare programs were used by only 14.2 percent of native Californians.

    “There’s a very big difference between what Mexican immigrants are supposed to pay in taxes and what natives are supposed to pay,” said Camarota. “This fact, coupled with their extremely high use of public services, means that there’s a very high cost for cheap labor.”

  71. AndromedA says:

    Well. I Do Not Wanna Become A Part Of An Argument. With All Respect, In First Place, I Belive If Any Of U Wanna Discuss About Politics, U Should Do It In A More Mature Way. Forget About Fin U, This N^ Tht And All Of Tht.

    Now Please Let Me Refeer Myself To This Controversial Subject.
    I Do Belive We’ve A Very Complicated Inmigrant Law Sys. Reform Going On. Why?. Well, Let Me Explain ‘My Perspective’. I’ve Read Most Of The Post By The People Who’ve Decided To Put Down Into Words, Wht They In Fact Think Is Right/Wrong. But Let Me Ask U A Q: Do U Belive Tht With A Ignorance N^ Missinformed Level Of Tht Class “We” Could, In Fact Still Run This Country?. I Would Love To Say: Yeah, We Could. But I’ll Choose: Hell No!!!.
    “We” Need To Think More Before We Speak. But Let Me Get To The Point, Which Is The Following:

    When I Heard The About Tht New Law, I Was Shocked, I Couldn’t Belive How Awesome We Were Doing, But Wait!. It Isn’t Tht Awesome To Give A Drivers Licence Away To Pleople Who Will Get The Right To Become Shadows N^ Surpass Any Control Point. Tht’s An Extreme. And As Many People Say: Extremes Aren’t Good.
    I’m Not A Against Inmigrants N^ Or Illegal Inmigrants (Cuz I Know The Reason Y they Come In. In Fact I’m an Inmigrant (From South America) America Is A Continent With 3 Regions North Central N^ South. We Are All Americans. As Far As Mention ‘American People’ Only When U Legally Reside Inside The US Territory, I Don’t Mind About It. I Love US (My Country) N^ It’s Part Of Our Trancendecy To Call Ourselves Or Each Other Americans, Only Cuz We Live Here In The US. It’s A Selfish Attitude, But Tht’s The Way It Is N^ Don’t Blame It N^ Or Pretend To Change It. Concidering Tht We Are All The Same (People & Human Beings). So Instead We Should All Get To Be Closer N^ Start Accepting Our Differencies.

    The Problem About The Drivers Licence Isn’t Tht People Would Get One, But The Fact Tht They Would Become Completly Strangers Who Maight Exchange Their Names As Many Times As They May Want To, N^ I Don’t Think Tht It Would Be Right. If “We” Want To Make Some Law System Reforms “We” Gotta Make Them RIGHT, N^ Put Some Restrictions To Those Drivers Licences. It Can Be Donne. In Fact Anything Can Be Donne By The Congress Or Local State Gov. It Just Depend Of How Bored They Fell.
    Now, Tlking About Terrorist Attacks, Terrorism. I Do Not Belive A Crap About This BBS. Why? Cuz We’re The Most Technologic Country In The Whole Entire World (After Japan) N^ Count With The Recuired Tech. In Order To Avoid All Of Tht Stuff From Happening In Our Nation. Yeah I Call It OUR NATION Cuz I’m A Part Of It N^ Pay My Crap. Altought I Do Not Speak Properly In Eng. I Do Contribute To My Homeland (The Gorgeous Place Tht US Is).
    Going Back To The Subject. If U Watch Channels Like Thirteen (Public Tv) U’ll Find Many Important Figures (Like Jimmy Carter) Saying Tht This War On Terrosim Is Wrong. But This War Is Happening Cuz We Must To Unfortunatly Generate War In Order To Keep This Place Wht Is Is (A Place Where U Can Live A Decent Life N^ Afford To Buy Whtever U Desire To [From A Humburger To A DVD Player]) Cuz We Do NOT Have A Long Term Economic Strategy Like Europe, France N^ Japan Do Among Others. N^ If We Do Not Support Our War Even Knowing It Is Wrong, Who The Heck Will?, Ha?!!!. So If U Disagree With It, U Should Step Away, N^ Move Foreward To Another Place. I Love My Country, Defend It, Suport It N^ Take Care Of It By Respecting The Sys. Law N^ Keeping The Streets Clean, Cuz All Of Thoses Are Part Of My Obligations + If U Have A Bit Of Moral N^ Principles U Will In Fact Take Care Of Ur Own Homeland.

    Illegal Inmigrants Get Access To Our Lands Cuz The Gov. Allow Them To (It Is Convenient) As Some Peep Have Mentioned. The Money They Earn Comes Back To The IRS, No Doubt. Spanish People, “Latinos” Are One Of The Etnics Who Spend More Money In Our Counrty. Overcome The Black Population By 1% Acording TO The 2002 Us Statistics. Nothing To get Jelous About. It’s Just A Coment. + They Generate Cheap Labor. Thts A Fact, Concidering Tht They Do Not Have Papers To Claim A Average Salary. They Do Have More Consecuenses Tooo!. Don’t Forget About They Do NOT Have Health Insurance Or Income Tax Return.
    Pretty Interesting Fact Right?

    So They Ain’t Enjoing Tht Much Of Privileges While Staying Illegal In Here As Many People May Think. They Mostly Live Packed Up In 2/3 Rooms Apps Or Even Bassments Inhabiting With 20 Or More People. And I Personaly Belive Tht It Musn’t Be Tht Fun To Live Tht Way. But They Gotta Survive. We Won’t Do Wht They Do (The Common Called ‘Dirty Job’).
    Who Of Us Would Go To A Farm N^ Expouse Our Body To The Extreme Heat For 40 Or More Hours A Week?. The Answer Is: None. We Would Rather Go To The Office, Lay On A Confi Chair With Air Conditioning N^ Up To 1H Lunch, 2 Or More 15 To 30 Min Brakes, Or Would U Rather Go To Work Under Those Other Decrepit Conditions? I Don’t Belive So. I Wouldn’t Nether.
    Those Illegal Inmigrants Move The Country Day By Day. We Do Our Part N^ They Obviously Do Theirs. I.E: Florida Was Created By Spanish Illegal Inmigrans, N^ Thanks To U Guys FL Is Wht Has Become Today. A Wonderful Example Of Interaction Between Illegal Inmigrants, Legal Residens N^ Or Citizens From US.
    So Whoever Blame Them For Trying To Survive, Just Try Reading Some International News Source (Exclude England Please) N^ Or Travel (If Possible), I’m Sure It Will Teach U A Lot. Those People Who Often Criticize Our Country (USA) For Stilling The Money From Them, Just Turn Arround N^ Point Ur Corupted Govs., NOT Ours, Please. We Loan Money To Whoever Is In Needs To Obtain It, But Remember, U Gotta Pay Us Back As Well. If Not, We’ll Eventually Take Care Of It In Our Own Way, (N^ Won’t Be Friendly) Concidering The Many Times We’ve Asked To Get Paid Back B4.

    I LOVE U AMERICA♥♥♥.
    PEACE (Where Due).

    PS: For Those Who Do Not Provide With A Real Email Address, I Wanna Give Ya A Little Info. Whether U’re Trying To Hide From I Don’t Know Who Or Not, By Faking Ur Real Email Address, This Is A Tip For Ya: Ur ISP (Internet Service Provider) ALLWAYS, N^ I Mean, ALLWAYS Record Ur IP (Internet Protocol) Onto A Log File When U Connect, To Keep Track Of The Sites U Visit.
    So If U’re Trying To Hide For Some Reason, I Gotta Something To Tell Ya: They’ll FIND U (If Needed). Even This Website May Do It Too With A Little Script Magic Touch,lol.
    So Don’t Play Hide N^ Seek Anymore. There’s No Sence In Doing Tht.

    I’ve Junk Mail Filter So Don’t Waste Ur Time Writing. Ä↔£↔£↔↔↔↔↔3☺

  72. sangria says:

    Illegals are line jumpers. I know many people who have been waiting for YEARS to come to this country, and they are still waiting.

    If I fly to france and have a child, that child doesn’t automatically become a french citizen. This practice of citizenship by place of birth needs to change in the USA.

    Illegal immigrants are just that: illegal.

    We need to give welfare and medical care to poor americans first. Let illegal immigrants be taken care of by their home country. If that country is not able to take care of the citizen, than the prospective immigrant should apply for citizenship, not hop the border.

    Illegals should not expect rights and social services. They need to become legal citizens in order to have the rights of an american.

    Most arguments I have read here that reject haight’s view are completely stupid. Instead of cursing her out, why don’t you list something worthwhile reading? Hopefully with better spelling?

  73. The Smart One says:

    Anne I accept your apology, I realize that you were blinded by stupidity, I’m glad I made a difference in your stupid life.

    P.S. I can see your “grammar” errors

  74. Anne Haight says:

    Smart One,

    I have deleted the so-called “apology” that I allegedly posted here. Just for readers’ information, Smart One posted it and slapped my name on it.

    Be aware that anyone who attempts to impersonate me or Kyle on this blog will be banned.

    Smart One, you may consider yourself banned. You changed IPs a lot so I don’t expect you to go away easily, but all of your posts to this blog from now on will be deleted.

  75. Esor ekutz says:

    koxxxeemmmm bannnnuuuu gorrrtzzzzz chuuunneeekkk kelek xelk havkek bozzzehhhh.
    Yo go get a job

  76. Brian says:

    Love your neighbor as you’d love yourself.
    Please one F-word per sentence. All of he hate on both sides will never fix anything.

  77. Brian says:

    the ‘”oops”

  78. Tony says:

    Most of you people make me sick. All you talk about is politics, taxes, race and money. I am a united state citizen of anglo saxon liniage and all I am listening to is a bunch of complints. A politician is a special breed of human being, and if you think that he is in it for you republican or democrat you are the bigest fool in the world. I am proud of my blood, liniage, race and nationality but guess what you are all talking about human beings theat the color of their blood drains red just like mine does. Is a line on a paper of a map wider than the ocean that my ansestors had to cross to become independent from the english and if I trace my liniage my blood is mixed with Irish, German, Sweed etc ((AND I WOULD DARE BET THAT THE REST OF YOUR BLOODS IF TRACED AS WELL AS MINE YOU WILL FIND THAT YOURS IS AS MIXED AS MINE IS. GUESS WHAT THAT MAKES YOU A PROUD NORTH AMERICAN M-U-T JUST LIKE I AM. BY THE WAY WE AT ONE TIME WERE ILLEGAL AS WELL. THE ONLY TRUE AMERICAN IN THIS COUNTRY ARE THE NATIVE AMERICANS WITCH WE ALMOST WIPED OUT. SO LETS QUIT ARGUING ABOUT ILLEGALS. AND LETS TALK ABOUT PEOPLE THAT DESIRE TO WORK AND PROVIDE FOR THEIR FAMILIES JUST AS WE DO. I HAVE LIVED IN LATIN AMERICA FOR A TOTAL OF 20 YEARS AND FIND THEM TO BE JUST AS HUMAN AS I AM, SO LEST GROW UP AND ACT LIKE ADULTS IN THIS DISCUTION AND NOT LIKE TWO SPOILD CHILDREN FIGHTING FOR A TOY. IF YOU ARE SO NORROWMINDED AND THINK THAT YOU CAN CLOSE THE OUTSIDE WORLD TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THEN YOU ARE A FOOL AND I RECOMEND FOR YOU TO LOOK AT THESE OTHER COUNTRY THAT HAVE SEALED THEMSELF LIKE NORTH KOREA, CHINA, IRAK, JUST SOUTH OF US CUBA AND COMPARE US TO THEM. IF THATS THE CASE THEN ANSERE THE QUESTION OF WHY ARE WE STICKING OUR OWN FINGERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES.

  79. acelaw says:

    THE ONLY TRUE AMERICAN IN THIS COUNTRY ARE THE NATIVE AMERICANS WITCH WE ALMOST WIPED OUT

    Those folks also emigrated here, every one did at one time or another in what ever part of the world you want to look at. There is no such thing as a Native American, they beat the pilgrims here, America was not even founded until 1876 well after they had been here for a while, kind of hard to be a native of a place that did not exist yet???
    We have confused the issue of immigration here, we are NOT A NATION of immigrates, we are a nation that allows immigration. I stopped being an immigrate way back with my Great- Great -Great Grandfather, 90% of the U.S, was born here, many races ,but all born here and did not immigrate anywhere. You have listened to the liberals and they have taken your Identity away from you. We have laws and a system to come here, we have good reasons for those too. You must not live in a place with massive illegals like I do. Well its not pretty, I have had to sell two houses one was my Dads and the house I grew up in, the Hood is not safe anymore, what was once a quite residential street is now a freeway, you have 15 and up people living in a three bedroom house, at least 3 cars ,more likely 5 or more, what used to be lawns are now dirt parking lots. Our schools are over run , my child sits in an overcrowded classroom next to folks who by-passed our health checks, T.B., Chagas, leprously to name a few to go along with a degrade education. Of course they have no rights to be protected from this RIGHT? We spend $20 billion a year just to teach English, where is our kids interest being protected here? After school actives ya right ?We need to build a school a day to keep up , small problem ,state is broke, illegals are responsible for 10 to 12 Billion of our budget problem, kind of hard to ignore, wouldn’t you say. We have the 18th street gang 39,000 strong, 60 % are illegal aliens, they have killed 1000 or so folks since 1985, South Central L.A. Calif. Do not need couches or chairs because that puts you in the line of fire for drive-bys, you sit on the floor, you sleep on the floor if you want to live.
    We have laws, we have a Constitution , Bill of Rights and over 200 years of proud immigration history, for what now ???Why is it that these folks can decide my child’s further, my income , my quality of life, the value of my house, I pay an extra $1,333 for there illegal presence in this country, do me and mine have no equal protection under the law?Is it fair that they jump the line in front of people that are more deserving then them, Mexico is not the poorest country in the world ,far from it.When you let 11 million folks decide your laws and the ones they want to obey, Well its not a pretty site and its not what made this country great and it is not safe nor fair to all involved. If we all started acting this way ,what kind of country will we have ?Same kind they just left, they destroy the very freedoms they seek with there actions and the sad part is they are not here to make this country better , they are here to strip mine what our fore fathers worked there butts off for. 30 Billion a year is sent out of this country, our wages, our economy suffers, they undercut the labor, they don’t pay there hospital bills, with rights that they sue us for, also comes responsibilities ,but that does not seem to be a priority with them. We are a nation that allows immigration , but we stopped long ago being a nation of immigrates. If you can point out some positive things with this massive illegal immigration I sure would like to see them???We are filling this country up with poverty that we will pay for a long time, what is the benefit of that ????Are we sentencing these folks to slave labor , sure looks that way to me.Get ready to take in another 100 million from Mexico by 2050,of course that puts our population over 400 million in a country that has a carrying capacity of 275 million to 300 million, we won’t be able to export any food by then, we plow 100,000 acres of farmland under per year to build houses, so we can employ folks at the number one job for low skilled for the next ten years according to the DOL, it is waiter/waitress WOW poverty level job,. Just what we need to create more of , how many more restaurants do we need in this country? Waste of land and resources and 90% of them fail in the first year.It sure looks like legal/illegal immigration is fueling this creation of poverty level jobs and demand that would not be there if we enforce our laws and border, but then no crying Tony when the Feds come after your paycheck, you are stuck in traffic, gas is $2.50 a gallon, your parks and beaches are trashed and overrun with bodies, of course that only happens on the days that it is safe to swim in it.You might want to look at the big picture because it is already too late for Calif. ,Natives and taxpaying jobs are leaving that state by the truckloads and they are being replaced by:

    http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-poor2dec02.story
    LOS ANGELES

    County’s Poor Areas Tripled, Study Finds
    Inner-city ring of poverty intensifies, but the problem also has spread to neighborhoods in the suburban areas.
    By Monte Morin
    Times Staff Writer

    December 2, 2003

    The number of poor neighborhoods in the Los Angeles region has more than tripled over the last 30 years, with poor and very poor neighborhoods becoming more geographically concentrated in suburban areas, according to a UCLA-Brookings Institution study released Monday.

    The study, titled “The Trajectory of Poor Neighborhoods in Southern California, 1970-2000,” reports that immigration and the region’s economy are responsible for a steady increase in the area’s poverty rate and a shift in the location of poor neighborhoods.

    “In the past three decades, the Los Angeles region has witnessed a large-scale spatial reorganization of poverty,” the report states. “Where once concentrated poverty was confined to neighborhoods in the inner city, it has since spread to the suburbs.”

    The study was written by researchers with UCLA’s Ralph and Goldy Lewis Center for Regional Policy Studies and the Brookings Institution’s Center on Urban and Metropolitan Policy. In a review of regional census data, researchers found that many of the area’s very poor were concentrated in neighborhoods around downtown L.A.

    During the 1990s, downtown Los Angeles and the Long Beach port area saw many poor neighborhoods worsen and become very poor neighborhoods — areas where the poverty rate exceeded 40%. The urban ring of poverty extended into the cities of Inglewood and Hawthorne, while the San Fernando Valley, Lancaster and Palmdale also saw a sharp increase in concentrated neighborhood poverty, the report said.

    This ring of very poor neighborhoods follows the Harbor and Long Beach freeway corridors south to San Pedro, as well as the Ventura Freeway between Pasadena and Burbank.

    In 1970, not quite a third of the region’s population lived in areas with a poverty rate of at least 20%. In the year 2000, 57% did, according to the study.

    Areas outside urban Los Angeles experienced the most rapid expansions of poverty, especially during the 1990s. Between 1970 and 2000, the percentage of poor neighborhoods in suburban Los Angeles County quadrupled, while it tripled in surrounding counties and remained relatively constant in urban L.A.

    The report says that international migration has played a major role, as well as the loss of many well-paying manufacturing jobs in the region. A large supply of less-skilled workers has depressed wages and created more competition in the labor market, contributing to slow wage growth and limited economic mobility, the report said.

    Racial and ethnic features of area poverty have also changed, the report said. The Latino proportion of the population living in very poor neighborhoods increased more than threefold between 1970 and 2000, while the black share of the population living in very poor neighborhoods declined dramatically.

    you forgot one that is closer , Mexico,HMMMMM, should we the USC be held acountable for Mexico and other nations failed policys?????Between 1930 and 1985 when all this illegal immigration started, we bulit what you see today and we did it with only 15 million folks coming here in 50 years, thats less then 300,000 per year, hey you know what? the jobs got done at a wage you could live on.We now have taken in over 30 million in half that time.

    IF YOU ARE SO NORROWMINDED AND THINK THAT YOU CAN CLOSE THE OUTSIDE WORLD TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA THEN YOU ARE A FOOL AND I RECOMEND FOR YOU TO LOOK AT THESE OTHER COUNTRY THAT HAVE SEALED THEMSELF LIKE NORTH KOREA, CHINA, IRAK, JUST SOUTH OF US CUBA AND COMPARE US TO THEM. IF THATS THE CASE THEN ANSERE THE QUESTION OF WHY ARE WE STICKING OUR OWN FINGERS IN THOSE COUNTRIES.

    Posted by: Tony at January 12, 2004 09:57 PM

  80. Anne Haight says:

    American Indians aren’t native to this continent any more than the rest of us. It depends how far back you want to go. There were plenty of folks living in North America that can be considered culturally distinct from the current incarnations of Indian tribes.

    So the “usurper” argument carries little weight with me.

  81. Susana says:

    I decided to stop reading the comments because of the ignorance from many of you. Whether one is Mexican or any other nationality, one is still a human being that deserves human rights. I hope that many of you are never in the position of experiencing what discrimination is all about. Many of the comments are outrageous.

    Many in this country feel that when they speak about Latinos they are refering only to Mexicans. The fact that Mexico borders with the US it has made it easier for them to imigrate this country, but after all it did belong to them, right? Who in this country is not an imigrant besides the Native Americans? They even had to travel from far away to come here. When the Colonist and Imperialist came to the Americas, they came with the Bible in one hand and the gun in the other. Did they ask for a visa or permision to live and work here? No of course not, they just ripped the land, the people, and made themselves at home. Don’t forget that this is what happened. History is recorded, and I am sure the people from Mexico as well as the Native Americas deserve more that what they are asking for, the crumbs you trow away and easily forget who puts them in your table. Do not pride yourself from the degrees you may have. Education is great, specially when is used for the improvement of self and our communities, but when some of you use it to abuse and step over others it is wrong. Work is good and healty for everyone. The fact that some people are doing the menial jobs, it does not mean they are less humans. They perhaps were not as fortunates to obtain what you have. I am a55 years old woman who for the first time is attending college, do you think I wanted to do what I did all my life? I have worked in the jobs that many refuse to do because it is easy for many of the legal citizens to get welfare, food stamps, as well as medical insurance.

    Have youu ever been out of this country? I hope you never esperience what you so outrightly do, discriminate, for it is the most degrating experience a human being can be subject to. If you are white, regarless of your nationality, you are born with certain rights in this unbalance world. I even experience the same treatment from those of my own nationality who happen to be more European influence. At the end we realize that after all we all have the same human needs: food, air, love,sleep, compasion, respect, and a very important one for the sake of getting rid off the toxins, we all defecate impurities in our bodies. At the end, we all turn to fertilizers.

  82. ACELAW says:

    Susana

    I decided to stop reading the comments because of the ignorance from many of you. Whether one is Mexican or any other nationality, one is still a human being that deserves human rights. I hope that many of you are never in the position of experiencing what discrimination is all about. Many of the comments are outrageous

    Dear Susana
    To have a basic right means all others are obligated to make sure it is not violated. With bona fide basic rights, such as to one’s life and liberty, this poses no problem because all others need to do to respect them is to abstain for intruding in one’s life and liberty
    .IN PLAIN ENGLISH YOU DO NOT ENTER A COUNTRY WITHOUT CONSENT OF ITS PEOPLE OR GOVERNMENT OR IN VIOLATION OF ITS LAWS, INTERNATIONAL LAWS AND AS YOU CAN SEE IN VIOLATION OF THE ARTICLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS CIVIL AND POLTICAL RIGHTS

    The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant

    THE RIGHTS AND FREEDOMS OF OTHERS ,DO YOU GET IT???? YOU HAVE TAKEN AWAY OUR BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS ,BUT YOU YELL DISCRIMINATION !!!IS THAT NOT WHAT YOU ARE DOING???? ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION COSTS THE TAXPAYER OF THIS COUNTRY 70 BILLION PER YEAR, THAT TAKES FOOD OFF MY CHILDERNS TABLE , THERE SCHOOLS ARE BANKRUPT, NO MONEY TO EDUCATE THEM, WE SPEND BILLIONS ON TEACHING ENGLISH TO PEOPLE WHO DO NOT BELONG HERE, WHERE IS THEIR “RIGHTS” , GUESS YOU MAKE CHOICES FOR THEM AND YOU COMPLAIN????WE ARE NOT RESPONIBLE FOR YOUR COUNTRYS PROBLEMS NOR ARE THEY BUT YOU MAKE THEM PAY DON’T YOU????
    or morals or the rights and freedoms of others,

    You respect my right to my life by not killing me; the right to my liberty by no assaulting or kidnapping me; my right to private property by not robbing or stealing from me. You need do nothing for me, only abstain from becoming an intruder. Such basic rights have, thus, been dubbed “negative” rights.
    You might want to explain how you are entitled to violate other folks BASIC HUMAN RIGHTS???? Your illegal and immoral actions affect others , BUT THEN WE ARE TO JUST SUFFER THOUGH IT FOR YOUR BENFIT RIGHT?????
    The United Nations
    INTERNATIONAL COVENANT ON
    CIVIL AND POLITICAL RIGHTS

    http://www.hrweb.org/legal/cpr.html#Article%2012.1

    Article 12

    Everyone lawfully within the territory of a State shall, within that territory, have the right to liberty of movement and freedom to choose his residence.
    Everyone shall be free to leave any country, including his own.
    The above-mentioned rights shall not be subject to any restrictions except those which are provided by law, are necessary to protect national security, public order (ordre public), public health or morals or the rights and freedoms of others, and are consistent with the other rights recognized in the present Covenant.
    No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of the right to enter his own country.

    Article 13
    An alien lawfully in the territory of a State Party to the present Covenant may expelled there from only in pursuance of a decision reached in accordance with law and shall, except where compelling reasons of national security otherwise require, be allowed to submit the reasons against his expulsion and to have his case reviewed by, and be represented for the purpose before, the competent authority or a person or persons especially designated by the competent authority.

    NOW Compare this with respecting a basic right to “food, shelter and health.” To do this one must actually work for others. The legal protection of these rights means, plain and simple, forced labor! If I have a right to food, those making food must provide me with food without compensation,THIS IS HOW YOU ACT HERE LIKE WE THE CITZENS OF THIS COUNTRY OWE YOU SOME HOW!!! just as I do not have to pay you if you do not murder, assault or rob me. So, such so-called basic rights mean nothing less than the conscription of those who provide the goods to which we allegedly have basic rights (or the forcible taking of wealth from others so as to pay for the services). They have, thus, been named “positive” rights, requiring positive actions from others at the point of a gun.EXPLIAN WHAT WE OWE YOU AND WHY????

  83. Fo says:

    If illegals are illegal… why are they here? Yes I know INS deports people, but really many of these people have jobs, and if you have a job you are contributing. I know that I don’t want to clean houses or be a day laborer. Not that those are the only jobs that illegals are qualified for, but maybe the only ones they can get. As for job market competition with citizens, wouldn’t it benefit our economy to have the person best suited to do a job do it. But really illegal immigrants are the foundation of our state. To deny this is naive. Unless we are committed to getting and keeping them all out, we should allow them to have driver’s licenses as a way to keep track and hold accountable illegal aliens. With a driver’s license, we have an address, they can get liability insurance. I know that “illegals are a drain on our economy” but just think if they all became legal tomarrow, they would pay taxes, and would not be able to take advantage of our system. If we think that there are too many people in California and our resources can’t handle it, shouldn’t we restrict interstate immigration from other US states. People are people. Someone moving from Nebraska is the same as someone moving from Chihuahua. Only one gets (!) to pay taxes and be accountable and the other is a criminal

  84. acelaw says:

    Posted by: Fo at February 26, 2004 04:52 PM

    But really illegal immigrants are the foundation of our state. To deny this is naive

    VDARE.COM – http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/educating_illegals.htm

    February 24, 2004

    National Data, By Edwin S. Rubenstein
    Educating Illegals Costs $900 per American Child
    Because illegal aliens typically earn so much less than natives, their economic contribution is much less than their numbers would suggest— and immigration enthusiasts incessantly claim.

    But illegal aliens’ cost to the American taxpayer is another matter. For example, the children of illegal aliens are currently being educated at American taxpayer expense because of the Supreme Court’s disastrous 1982 Plyler vs. Doe decision. The expense of this is high and disproportionate:

    An estimated 1.1 million school-aged illegal immigrants are living in the U.S. [Source: Michael Fix and Jeffrey Passel, “U.S. Immigrants—Trends and Implications for Schools,” The Urban Institute, 2003.]

    The U.S.-born children of illegals, technically citizens by virtue of the current misinterpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment, could easily be twice that number (my conservative estimate, based on the overall ratio of children to immigrants—see table.) That’s another 2.2 million.

    At $8,745 per pupil (the average annual cost of K-12 public education in the U.S.) the cost of educating illegals and their children comes to $29 billion ($8,745 times 3.3 million children).

    ESL, bilingual, and other immigrant-oriented programs can raise per-pupil costs by 15 to 25 percent. That pushes the cost of educating illegals to $36 billion.

    To put it another way, illegal aliens are imposing an additional cost amounting to $900 per American child (i.e. child of American-born parents) in the public school system.

    What about the total impact of immigration on education? More than one in five K-12 students are immigrants (legal or illegal) or the children of immigrants. We know this thanks to the Current Population Survey, a sort of mini-census taken each month by the Census Bureau. The survey asks respondents if they are immigrants and if their parents were immigrants—legal status unspecified—thus allowing us to isolate the impact of immigration on school enrollment.

    The October 2001 Survey shows:

    51.355 million children enrolled in K-12

    2.299 million foreign born children enrolled in K-12

    10.596 million children of foreign born enrolled in K-12

    K-12 education now costs $415 billion, or 4% of GDP. Based on the enrollment figures, immigrants must account for at least one-fifth of this amount, or about $85 billion.

    More importantly, immigration (legal and illegal) is responsible for virtually all the recent growth in school-age population. We can see this by comparing the CPS reports for October 1998 and October 2001. In that period:

    The total number of school age children enrolled in K-12 grew by 621,000

    Foreign born children enrolled in K-12 grew by 96,000

    Children of foreign born enrolled in K-12 grew by 601,000

    Four states—Florida, California, Texas, and Arizona—lead the nation in school-age population growth. (See tables.) Big surprise: these states are all among the most immigrant-impacted.

    Just another example of the truth enunciated years ago by Nobel Laureate economist Milton Friedman: “It’s just obvious you can’t have free immigration and a welfare [i.e. transfer payment] state.”

    [Number fans click here for tables.]

    Edwin S. Rubenstein (email him) is President of ESR Research Economic Consultants in Indianapolis.

    VDARE.COM – http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/job_crunch.htm

    March 08, 2004

    National Data, By Edwin S. Rubenstein

    Americans losing jobs to Latino Immigrants
    Some months ago, I noted in VDARE.COM that Hispanic employment, while increasing at the expense of native-born Americans, was not nearly keeping pace with Hispanic population growth.

    Last Friday’s dismal job numbers for February confirm the trend. Hispanic employment rose by 1,000 from January, while the share of adult Hispanics who are employed declined to 62.0% from 62.2%.

    Belatedly, my job story has been echoed by an Establishment research organization. (Nyah nyah!)

    The recent, much-hyped labor market study by the Pew Hispanic Center, [“Latino Labor Report, 2003” shows that between the fourth quarters of 2002 and 2003:

    The number of employed Latinos rose by almost 660,000, or 3.9%.

    Non-Latino employment rose by just 371,100, or by 0.3%

    The mainline media was exuberant: “Latinos landed a disproportionate share of new jobs created last year….” To Harry Holzer, a professor of public policy at Georgetown University, the hiring binge was evidence that employers prefer “more appreciative and less demanding” immigrants.

    [Recent Latino immigrants won majority of new jobs, By Anastasia Ustinova, Knight Ridder Newspapers ]

    “It is a form of discrimination, in a way, in favor of foreign-born workers,” opines Dr. Holzer, described in news reports as an expert in “ethnicity and low-wage work.”

    Pro-Hispanic discrimination? Look at the Pew report again, Dr. Holzer. Employers are hiring Latinos because they come cheap. Latino wages declined last year because the supply of unskilled Latino labor exceeded the demand. From 2002-Q4 to 2003-Q4:

    The working-age Latino population (age 16+) grew 5.0%

    The ratio of Latino employment-to-Latino population fell from 63.9% to 63.2%

    Average wages for Latinos fell 2.6%

    Average wages for Whites and Blacks rose 0.8% and 4.8%, respectively

    Latino immigrants are getting jobs. In the process, however, they are displacing native-born Americans­and first and second generation Hispanics, many of whom are too discouraged to remain in the labor force.

    As a result, the overall labor force participation rate for Hispanics fell in 2003 despite the increase in Hispanic employment.

    When people leave the labor force they are no longer counted as unemployed. Had these labor force leavers been accounted for, overall Hispanic unemployment would double – to 14.3% from the official 7.1% rate reported for 2003-Q4. On this basis unemployment remained unchanged for Hispanics in the last six months of 2003 while declining for all other ethnic groups.

    The moral: mass immigration hurts native-born workers­and immigrant workers too.

    We are witnessing a jobs crunch. This economic recovery is already producing sub-par employment growth. (I’ll be writing about this soon). Immigration is making things tougher for American workers.

    Yet President Bush’s response, in an election year, is to propose unlimited importation of “temporary” workers.

    How odd.

    Edwin S. Rubenstein (email him) is President of ESR Research Economic Consultants in Indianapolis.

  85. Sandra says:

    So, when all of the illegal immigrants are all gone, who’s going to fo all of the so called jobs that they are taking? I really doubt the majority of people would jump to their feet to go work out in the scorching sun, doing agrucultural work. Are we going to send the naval forces to take care of that job since not many are willing to do work like that? What about janitorial work, gardening (landscaping), or even nanny jobs?

  86. Anne Haight says:

    *sigh*

    Economics lesson time, Sandra.

    If there are jobs that need to be done, and no one is willing to take those jobs, then the employer has several options. One option, a common one, is to increase the wage offered for the job.

    As the wage goes up, the number of people willing to take the job increases. At some point, the wage and the job applicants will reach an equilibrium. Jobs get filled, people get paid. Problem solved.

    Concurrent with this increase in wages is an increase in the employer’s costs. He must recoup those expenses somehow. He could cut costs elsewhere, increase the price of his goods/services, and/or decrease his profit margin. All options have some negative effect or another on someone, somewhere.

  87. acelaw says:

    So, when all of the illegal immigrants are all gone, who’s going to fo all of the so called jobs that they are taking? I really doubt the majority of people would jump to their feet to go work out in the scorching sun, doing agrucultural work. Are we going to send the naval forces to take care of that job since not many are willing to do work like that? What about janitorial work, gardening (landscaping), or even nanny jobs?
    Posted by: Sandra at March 17, 2004 05:30 PM

    Sandra
    We have had less then 15 million people come here between 1930 and 1980’S this is when the “Foundation” for the wealth you see today was laid.It was not done on the backs of immigrates but by folks “born “ here which is 90% of people today in this country.As Ann explains the jobs got done for at least a wage you could live on , not so with this “cheap” labor that is costing us TAXPAYERS 70 BILLION PLUS per year, you can not live here on $6.00 per hour with out using taxpayers supported services.Illegals cost the state of Calif 10 to 12 BILLION per year

    http://www.vdare.com/asp/printPage.asp?url=http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/policy_cost.htm

    VDARE.COM – http://www.vdare.com/rubenstein/policy_cost.htm

    October 21, 2003

    National Data, By Edwin S. Rubenstein
    Immigration Policy Costing American Workers $2,600 A Year
    A reader recently wrote us:

    “Imagine my tremendous consternation at being caught, even after having read Alien Nation, by this dinner line:

    “‘Our economy is better off with immigrants. They do the jobs nobody else wants to do.’

    “No, I said to the last part. They just underbid.

    “But I couldn’t address the first part, maybe because it’s so large and unsubstantiated a claim. I just mentioned such things as: the shutdown of public hospitals in Los Angeles, welfare, crime, etc.

    “Do you know of anyone with a statistical answer to the challenge, ‘America is better off economically with the immigrants’?”

    Statistical answer: surprisingly, this is actually one of the best-established findings in immigration economics—albeit the least publicized.

    The 1995 findings of Harvard economist George Borjas [George Borjas, “The Economic Benefits from Immigration,” Journal of Economic Perspectives, Spring 1995] were confirmed by the National Research Council’s 1997 report The New Americans: essentially all the increase in Gross Domestic product [GDP] brought about by immigration is captured by the immigrants themselves, in the form of wages. Virtually no benefit accrues to native-born Americans.

    (And once transfer payments like welfare, education and healthcare are factored in, immigration becomes a net cost—for example, over $1,000 in annual extra taxes per native-born household in California. Americans are financing their own dispossession.)

    Even less publicized: the Borjas model reveals the true economic consequence of immigration: a massive redistribution of wealth within the American native-born community—basically, from labor to capital, because of immigration’s impact on wages.

    The key variable: the rate at which native-born wages fall as the total number of workers rises—the so-called “price elasticity” of labor. Borjas estimates that each 10% increase in immigrant workers reduces native wages by about 3.5%. About 14% of employed workers in 2002 were immigrants. So the reduction in native wages attributable to immigrants that year was approximately 4.9% (35% of 14%).

    As our reader told his dinner companions, it’s true that immigrants don’t do work Americans won’t do—they just do it for less.

    But, more importantly, immigrants do indeed do one dirty job: make it easier for Americans to exploit each other.

    I’ve recalculated this immigration impact on the basis of the latest government data. This is how it came out:

    Net economic gain from the immigrant presence to native-born Americans, before transfer payments: just 0.2 percent of GDP (that is, two-tenth of one percent!) in today’s 10.4 trillion economy — that comes to a mere $84 per native-born American.

    Native-born capital-owners’ gain as a result of immigration: about 3.1% of GDP, or $323.8 billion. This goes to employers and, for example, upper-income owners of stocks and employers of servants.

    Native-born workers’ loss as a result of immigration: about 2.9% of GDP —$302.9 billion in a $10.4 trillion economy, or a remarkable $2,578 for each native-born worker every year.

    Remember, these are averages. Unskilled native workers lose far more than the 4.9% average wage loss. Black Americans in particular are big losers. But recent research shows that even college graduates, once thought immune to immigrant competition, face wage reductions. [See: George Borjas, “The Labor Demand Curve is Downward Sloping: Reexamining the Impact of Immigration in the Labor Market,” NBER, June 2003.]

    There are far fewer owners of capital than there are workers in the U.S. The economic benefits of immigration are concentrated in the elite. The losses widely dispersed among ordinary Americans.

    That’s why the politics of immigration are so difficult—and why you’ve only seen this finding, although it’s the consensus among academic economists, reported in VDARE.COM.

    [Number fans click here for table.]

  88. Anne Haight says:

    acelaw, just FYI, I don’t think anybody is actually reading these gargantuan cut-and-pastes you are posting here. I know I don’t. I’m not interesting in wading through it to find out what kind of a point you are trying to make.

    In the future, if you wish to cite an article, please post a link to it and only quote the tiny relevant bit.

  89. Andres says:

    Dear Anne,

    The issue of illigal immigration is a matter of “Supply and Demand”. The U.S. has the jobs and Latin America the workers. Can the ecomomi wait for those “illegal immigrants”???

  90. Cynthia says:

    A little bit of my background: I came here illegally and was soon naturalized through my mother, a naturalized citizen of the United States. We came here to reunite with the rest of my mom’s family after my parents divorced. I must say, it’s very sad there is such racist arguments posted here, but what’s even sadder is that the racism comes from both sides. If you are an American citizen you are NOT better than those who are not; if you are not a citizen, that does NOT make you better than those who are, and it does NOT make you a victim. I am really tired of all this and all I would like for people to do is: PLEASE BE LOGICAL IN YOUR ARGUMENTS, DON’T JUST OFFEND AND CALL PEOPLE DERROGATORY NAMES! Really do try to see the big picture and realize all of the benefits that these hard-working families bring to this country. Through working for the city in which I reside, I can tell you a fact: in 2003 over $5 million worth of income tax credit was NOT claimed by those who qualified (this is in MY city alone!) WHY? Because most of these people who paid tax and didn’t claim what they deserved back are ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS. So you cannot say that they get all kinds of benefits for FREE; they really DO pay for it through their income tax. Also, think about the benefit that would come from issuing DLs to those people: first of all, the government would have their info, fingerprints and picture on file; second of all, if you multiply the number of illegal drivers times the amount that would be paid to the DMV yearly for applying($24) and renewing DLs…($$$); third, I want you to think about your car insurance…I have to pay a higher amount because in my county there is a large number of uninsured motorists, if they were granted a DL, they would acquire car insurances (trust me), so insurance rates would go down -and if they were hurt in a car accident, their insurance would pick up the bill, not the government. So if you don’t want them to get DLs because you see them as criminals, at least do it for the money.

  91. Cinthya says:

    I agree with Cynthia. It is sad to see how people can be so selfish. I am for the driver licenses for illegal aliens because I feel that they should be given the benefit due to their hard work. I came here when i was 5 years old. I have been trying to legalize ever since. unfortunetly i have not been able to do so. When I read the the message that illigal immigrants get things for free I was upset it is not true. My family has work hard and I have had a hard time to pay my tuition and pay taxes knowing that i am not going to receive that money back. I feel that a person is an american if they belive in the country not if they have a paper that says it. I also feel that people should be fair. I know that some some people that are legally here work hard and give their best but i also know that illegal immigrants give their best to this country and come to have a better life. I think that we the illigal immigrants should have the opportunity to obtain driver licenses.

  92. Justice says:

    This is a country of immigrants. What made the first settlers “legal” immigrants? Themselves. Did they ask permission to the natives? NOPE. Does that mean that they were all a bunch of criminals? NO! So the term “illegal immigrant” being applied to those who cross the border makes no sense when you think about WHO is labeling them so.

  93. ACELAW says:

    To the Cynthia’s
    they really DO pay for it through their income tax

    Studies show that the average undocumented couple in Los Angeles has an income of around $10,000 per year.
    footnote: See David Heer, Undocumented Mexicans in the United States, Cambridge University Press, 1990, p.155.
    They will pay little or no income tax in this bracket, and perhaps a few hundred dollars in sales and other miscellaneous taxes. Yet each of their children will use at least $4,500 in state and other tax monies per year for schooling (over $6,000 if the child has limited proficiency in English). In order to survive on this low income, they will also be forced to draw Medi-Cal (California’s Medicaid), AFDC and so on. And this is not even counting the Earned Income Tax Credit for which the family is eligible.
    Now suppose this family’s $10,000 income comes from a $5/hour job for the husband. The family is receiving services on the order of double its income, so the real wage being paid to the husband (from the point of view of the consumer who buys the goods he produces) is more like $15/hour. Thus his “low” wages are in reality not low at all, and the claimed boon to the consumers of the goods he produces does not exist.

    As far as the DL goes
    I have to pay a higher amount because in my county there is a large number of uninsured motorists,
    that’s why we have laws here to prevent some of us adversely being affected by a small minority breaking the law, illegal immigrates affect all facets of our lives, school overcrowding, freeways and roads`, pollution, taxes ,natural resources ,gas, electricity rates, housing rentals rates you can go on and on . They flat do not have the right to dictate their wishes where every they want in the world!!!!People are affected by it so where do they get the right???? We USC are hardworking too ,if that makes breaking the laws OK then I have a lot of credit to use up!!! Bottom line is the compassion you demand of us you do not show in return or you never would of crossed that border illegally. WE ALL WANT A BETTER LIFE !!!

    .

  94. acelaw says:

    The issue of illigal immigration is a matter of “Supply and Demand”. The U.S. has the jobs and Latin America the workers. Can the ecomomi wait for those “illegal immigrants”???
    Posted by: Andres at April 25, 2004 10:21 PM

    Having the “workers” and creating dead end poverty level jobs does nothing for this county , it benefits the worker and the owner, it cost us taxpayers $$$$$$, you seem to think we can not live without them HMMMM we sure have and still do in most parts of this country.

    http://www.rescueamericanjobs.org/articles/immigration/fair_cost.pdf
    The cost of immigration to our society is enormous. The most recent estimate places
    the net cost of post-1969 immigrants at $61 billion in 2000 alone ($35 billion from
    legal immigrants and $26 billion from illegal immigrants).1 This is after immigrants��
    contribution in taxes has been subtracted. As high as the cost is now, the rising tide of
    immigration will lift it even higher in years to come. By the end of 2002, the annual
    net cost of immigration will have risen $66 billion.2
    A study from the National Bureau of Economic Research, based on the Census
    Bureau��s Survey of Income and Program Participation, analyzed the cost of
    immigrants based on their specific use of means-tested welfare (both direct and
    indirect), and found that the total immigrant receipt of benefits in 1996 came to $180
    billion.3 That annual amount is sure to grow as the population of legal and illegal
    immigrants receives over one million new people a year.

    Posted by: Justice at May 3, 2004 04:19 PM
    This is a country of immigrants. What made the first settlers “legal” immigrants? Themselves. Did they ask permission to the natives? NOPE. Does that mean that they were all a bunch of criminals? NO! So the term “illegal immigrant” being applied to those who cross the border makes no sense when you think about WHO is labeling them so.

    Justice
    All countries can be called a country of immigration/immigrants at one time or another in there history SO???? Your comparing apples and oranges , this was an unsettled country when we came, just the Indians who also migrated here .We passed laws just as all other countries have done and we laid claim to our borders. We the People decided to limit immigration to this country as all others have done also. These are things you do to become part of the civilized world , the proper term is Illegal alien which we must have as a legal definition as part of our legal system. I stopped being an immigrate 7 generations ago just as 90% of the folks who live here were BORN HERE!!!We are a nation who allows immigration but we are NOT a nation of immigrates ANYMORE!!!

  95. nathanael says:

    In the great words of a wise woman which was my grandmother she stated, “we spend 3/4 of our lifetime trying to find excuses to hate, and 1/4 trying to figure out why we do it and when you die and your life is pass by with emotions of someone else do we realize that we have wasted our time building walls instead of bridges that will keep us in someone’s heart for eternaty” Izel Teutli

  96. Twila Perez says:

    Point #1
    Illegals are illegal.
    Point #2
    They will get ID’s & Liscenses one way or another
    Point #3
    if they get their liscenses illegaly, do you honestly think they’ll put their real name,addresses, etc…?

    I know they won’t, just because I know a great deal of illegals.

    When given the option most would gladly do anything for an honest liscense. That would also mean having to fork up a lot of info such a birthcertifacates, Mexican ID’s, Where they were born, who their families are, etc…To which thewy wouldn’t mind if it meant the liscense would be 100% in the clear.

    I think the Q is which would you rather have

    1.

    A bunch of illegals w/ 0% paper trails, 0% way of identifing who they truly are, and 0% knowledge of where they came from.

    or

    2.

    A bunch of illegals that have a history(if they have ID they’ll most likely use it), No matter what they do you know where to look because you know where their family lives, and best of all
    you know they have to at least obey the laws while their here because the police know who they are and can make a permanent record.(including traffic tickets)

    As to the fact of them being illegal very few actually like breaking the law. They do it out of necesity. Have you ever lied on an application to get a job, or a loan, or even an apartment? Well, suprise, what the hell do you think their risking life and limb to cross that border illgally for? For fun? They do it for a better life just like our ancestors before us did.

    And do I believe in blanket amnesty? Not on your life. However I do think we should cut some slack to the countries that haven’t caused any wars with us for close to 2 centuries give or take.

    As for them taking our jobs well I sure as hell don’t see many of them on welfare. So at least they know how to work and not blow all of their money.

    In case your wondering I don’t have a drop of hispanic blood in me. In fact my family can be traced beack to the Daniel Boone era and beyond.

    Also what would the US do without those dead end poverty jobs? Somebody’s got to pick my veggies…. or are you volunteering for the postion? to make a society you must start from the bottom up. To hve a toilet will give a plumber a job, right? But would that plumber have a job in the first place if someone else didn’t accept the job of wading around in shit all day to keep the pumps flowing or did you just assume your waste goes to never never land once your through. Life is a puzzle if a piece is missing the pieces could never truly become a whole. Not a lot of mexicans I know are really interested in school.(including legals)
    They are hard workers and will continue to be for the rest of their lives. Most of them will also continue to work in the same positions for the same menial wages just bacause they are happy w/ just that. Legal or not. So in the end they’ll continue to be the backbone of society. Behind the scenes but there just the same.

    P.S. My knowledge doesn’t come from books or studies done by people who have probably never met an illegal unless the illegal just happens to be hired help. My info comes from 100% first hand experience.I work a great deal with Mexicans, just over the last 4 years. Many of them have become good, if not great, friends. The kind you count on. Don’t get me wrong There are some who love to learn and are incredibly smart. Others that become more American than
    Mexican, and others still who are dishonest and bad. There is no such thing as all. That goes for every race and every society. I just speak for those I know.

  97. jorge says:

    yes i think that we should get driver licence too just like all you people out there. why not? we are the ones that put the apple, banana, and all the other fruit and vegetable on your table i dont think you would do the job we due. Yes i will love to see you working out there in the field in a very hot summer yeah thats what i though. so give us the driver licence.

  98. veronica avalos says:

    Forget who does all the picketing in the fields. The matter of this situation is to provide Driver license to immigrants. Why? According to an article I read,

    *Granting immigrants the right to obtain licenses saves lives.
    *Denying driver’s licenses increases the likelihood of identity fraud.
    *Denying driver’s licenses is an ineffective means of enforcing immigration law.
    *Denying driver’s licenses is an ineffective tool for preventing terrorism or improving security.

    Yes, we all work hard in this country, but a fact immigrants have to work the hardest and are exposed more too hazardous conditions and their health is more at risk due to the different climates they work in. They are not sitting in an office and controlling the air conditioner or heather. Immigrants need driver license to be on the safe side in case of an accident. Without a driver license they are not able to provide insurance and will most likely cause hit and runs. So for all of you who oppose to this re-think and put yourself in their shoes.

  99. Anne Haight says:

    Veronica,

    Totally irrelevant. Illegal immigrants are illegal. Line jumpers should not be granted any of the privileges of citizens and legal residents who followed the rules to get here.

    The potential practical benefits of doing so are irrelevant. We could save a lot of time and money in this country if we stopped prosecuting people for murder. That doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.

    And what would be the logical consequence of failing to prosecute murder? Murders would increase. Similarly, awarding a driver’s license to a trespasser adds another incentive to trespass instead of following the proper procedure for entering this country. It is also unjust to all the people who follow the rules.

    Where exactly did you read this “article”? Have any actual sources to back up those claims?

  100. Cat says:

    Illegal- not according to or authorized by law : UNLAWFUL, ILLICIT; also : not sanctioned by official rules (as of a game)
    http://aolsvc.merriam-webster.aol.com/home-aol.htm
    Illegal means it’s against the LAW! There is absolutely nothing wrong with legal immigrants. Illegal Immigrants in California should not be issued driver’s licenses. The key word here is ILLEGAL! Driver’s Licenses are a privilege, not a right and if someone wants the privilege to live and work in our country then they need to follow our countries’ rules, and get a Visa. There is no good excuse not to have one. No one should be here illegally. ILLEGAL immigrants are a drain on our economy and they are a potential threat to the ones who have a right to be here. GET A VISA!

  101. veronica says:

    All of you are racist. Cat, you stated that “Driver’s Licenses are a privilege, not a right and if someone wants the privilege to live and work in our country then they need to follow our countries’ rules, and get a Visa. There is no good excuse not to have one. No one should be here illegally” your right so if your saying that if a DL is not a right but a privilege for those who only live and work in CA, so wouldn’t that mean that illegal immigrants who work in agriculture have the privilege to get a DL. They are working and work in CA. Another thing is not that easy to get a VISA. There is a process to get one.

    And for you Anne you need some kind of education in history. For your info we are the ones who crossed their borders, we stole their territory and that makes us illegal. You’re to close minded and stupid.

    All of you are prejudice and need and EDUCAION. I would love to see all of you work in agriculture so you can experience what a job really is.

  102. Anne Haight says:

    Veronica,

    Thank you for proving my point that you don’t actually have any sources to back up your claims.

    Agriculture jobs are not all picking food in the fields, as you imply. There are several people in my family who have advanced degrees in agricultural fields. They don’t pick strawberries for a living.

    As for history, it is you who have demonstrated an appalling lack of knowledge of the history of the United States, Mexico, and Spain. You could have corrected this by spending about an hour alone with Google. A truly open mind would recognize that the facts support a very different interpretation of events, and that your position on this issue is not grounded in reality.

    But you have already decided what to believe, and therefore any facts that contradict it must be ignored or the entire fabric of your world unravels. Scary, I know, but I would respect you if you were merely a student of the truth, and not so baldly determined to label people who disagree with you as “stupid”.

    Also, you might try learning to spell, use punctuation, and know the difference between your homynyms before telling other people that they are “prejudice” and need an “EDUCAION”.

  103. Shrike says:

    Mexican’s are taking over california. I had to move out of there becuss they bring the drug’s over and have no respect for the laws. They have around 5 family’s in one house. drugs are east’er to find then beer. There are no greater words, to explain what they are doing. Its sad. They all have permishion to grow it in there back yards becuss they have helth problems. its funny all of them in the naborhood have thet helth thing. They gust go to a doctor and say they have pain’s here, and, there. And then they can grow it and smoke it. The government needs to take action.

  104. Anne Haight says:

    Shrike
    They all have permishion to grow it in there back yards becuss they have helth problems. its funny all of them in the naborhood have thet helth thing. They gust go to a doctor and say they have pain’s here, and, there. And then they can grow it and smoke it. The government needs to take action.

    I’m guessing you’re talking about medical marijuana here. How exactly that ties into your hostility toward Mexicans I’m really not sure. California’s medical marijuana laws are not as simplistic as you seem to think.

    That aside, you need to mind your own damn business and stop being such a busybody, worrying about who might be growing pot in their yard and *gasp* smoking it for fun. There are way more important things in the world to get exercised about, and what your neighbor is ingesting is not one of them.

    And you’d have 5 families living in 1 house too if you were poor as fuck. I’m sure they don’t enjoy it and wish they could make more money and move into their own places. I don’t particularly care if lots of people live in one house as long as they don’t take up all the parking spaces on the street.

  105. Anonymous says:

    >Obviously there are problems with this, especially since these documents are not authenticated in any way. In other words, they don’t check to verify the identity of anyone who asks for one. The put whatever name on it you tell them to. They also do not cross-reference with other consulates to find out if the same individual has applied for a card more than once.

  106. jen says:

    Let me start out by saying I am 16 and have more common sense than half the people commenting. It is honestly amazing that illegal immigrants think the U.S. owes them something like a drivers lisence. Why don’they just drive illegaly, its not like doing somthing that was illegal stopped them before(obviously).

    My family is from Holland, i am first generation american on my fathers side. let me tell you, if you think my grandparents had it great coming from Europe, think again. they had to stay in canada for 5 year(where my father was born) so they could come here legally, and they still aren’t even citizens… it’s called a green card, get with the program. they worked their asses off for decades to get where they are to day. BUt here’s the catch, they did it legally! Guess what? my grandama cleaned houses too. But she did it legally.

    What’s even funnier is how you can call Anne racist, but did she say immigrants from Mexico. it’s not her fault that people associate illegal immigrants with being from mexico. I have no problem with immigrants from anywhere, but I do have a problem with Illegal immigrants, no matter what country you from. You ”latinos” brought the racist shit upon yourself, she never said specifics, bet you feel stupid now. And, by the way, if you going to call someone ”stupid”, make sure you know how to spell it.

  107. Anne Haight says:

    jen, thanks for your comments. You’re right on the nose with the observation that people have begun to equate “immigrants” with “Mexican”. Even hispanic politicians do this (former Lt. Governor Cruz Bustamente comes to mind). It’s very interesting to watch this phenomenon in action, because of what it tells you about the underlying thoughts of the person doing it.

  108. Kevin Dessert says:

    I have recently done extensive research into the issue of immigration. While we are all immigrants from somewhere, we need to realize the burdens on our economy due to illegal aliens. It really is unfortunate that Mexico is coming up short on suppling their citizens with a viable future. Should we allow illegal aliens to obtain drivers licences ? I don’t think so. If we do we will be expanding the burden of illegals onto our economy. California spends millions of dollars housing illegal aliens in its jails and prisons. Police officers are prohibited from inquiring the legal status of these illegals. Hence they are released back onto the streets of america instead of being deported! California spends 2.2 billion dollars a year to educate illegal aliens. I refer to them as aliens and not immigrants because they did not go through the legal channels of entry. Every legal immigrant should feel cheated by these illegal aliens. We need immigration policy reform to squelch the influx of illegal aliens. We need to end chain migration. We need to stop supplying illegals with healthcare and welfare. We need to grant easier legal means of entry into our country at a rate of no more than 400,000 per year. We need to greet these “coyotes” with a howitzer shell! We need to exercise brutal force at our southern. I know there is a lot of hispanics who don’t want to hear this. The reality is that if we keep allowing illegals to enter our country. If we keep importing poverty.Then we will be nothing but third world ourselves. We need immigrants to perform low skilled jobs in america. We need immigrants to continue with our rich cultural diversity. We don’t need immigrants at such a rate that our schools suffer. We don’t need illegal aliens. We don’t need to supply illegals with social services.The only service an illegal alien should get is a free ride back to their country! Let’s get it together people before it’s too late!

  109. patty says:

    I see both points of view on this issue. Drivers license has become an issue here in california, but at the same someone has to educate the illegal immigrants on how to drive. You have to look at the big picture. So many people die in accidents that involve unlicense drivers. We pay so much of insurance, its unbelievable. We shoould pass a bill with a time limit and see how that works, intead of having just so many assumtions on what could of, should of wouldof happened!!!! Other states have proposed it, for example Florida.

  110. My Business says:

    I would suggest someone topple Miss Haight off her high horse.

    It’s hard to believe the hypocrisy that comes out of her mouth.
    Why is the onus on the immigrants to ‘not come here’ whether legally or illegally (I believe both categories are treated the same way)
    You can scream and call them criminals all you want. There are more legal people locked up in jail than there are illegal immigrants deported.
    You are forgetting the one category Miss Haight who are perhaps the more culpable.

    That would be- you guessed it- the employers. Aren’t they the real criminals Miss Haight? The ones (legal citizens) who know it to be wrong and do it anyway- well that’s what I call hypocrisy.
    Sure let them work, but let us treat them like ‘dogs’. They are not good enough to give licenses to , but they’re certainly good enough to work.
    Perhaps anyone who hires them should be jailed and then you would see all the ‘criminals’ stop coming in. But until then I suggest that they come in droves and eventually displace you from that job you seem so proud of.

    I will forgive you because you really don’t know how to emphatize with people whose lifestyles you are not famailiar with, but on such issues please be quiet- and by the way I hate to be the one to break this to you but not all illegal immigrants are limited to a 6th grade education- ofcourse in a normal individual who has compassion towards humans like yourself that should evoke a feeling of sympathy for those who have a limited education; but let us not forget that anyone can work in an office- we are actually not that impressed.
    (Everbody I think a modicum of respect is due to Miss Haight who felt the need to tell us all that she has an office job)

  111. Anonymous says:

    Jen my dear
    Not all illegal immigrants come to this country illegally.

  112. james says:

    I think veronica sounds sexy…….i wanna get busy with u

  113. My Business says:

    Well serves you right Cat & Acelaw- that’s what Americans get for bullying the Mexicans out of their rightful property in the first place. For you both I have no sympathy.
    Cat- Perhaps you should give up your citizenship and then try to get a green card to prove your point- them we would see Madam if there’s no excuse ‘not’ to have one!

    And Acelaw once again there are people who came to this country illegally and are now illegal. NOT EVERYBODY CAME HERE ILLEGALLY.

    And now again for Miss Haight- Make up your mind please- you are the real busy body. You really are lethal to the point of annoyance. Will you just listen to your self. You don’t care if 5 immigrants live in one room-all you care about is your what? YOUR DAMN PARKING SPACE!
    I wish I were Mexican and living in California because I would find your spot and park in it- just for the heck of it; and so I say give them all drivers licenses so that they can indeed take up EVERY parking space imaginable so you can hightail your self to another state. I bet that hadn’t occured to you, that you are not planted there- unfortunately for you illegal immigrants are everywhere and I hope they are here to stay.

    By the way I just read that the person Guiliani endorsed for a position in the White House actually could not get the job- guess why? Well he hired a nanny who was illegal and well I’m sure you can figure this out- He didn’t pay taxes.
    Isn’t he the real criminal Miss Haight??

    This one I can’t resist; I notice how you were quick to point out to Veronica to be careful of her homonyms – as you seem to be intent on proving that you are the only one who has mastered the English Language- Well Miss Haight the word ‘homonymn’ is not spelt ‘homynyms’. I will forgive you for the misspelling of the word ‘education’ this time. But you might want to be a little more careful about throwing around words you have only a vague memory of spelling. Beleive me you are showing yourself up and it ain’t pretty.

  114. Anne Haight says:

    I would suggest someone topple Miss Haight off her high horse.

    You don’t feel up to it?

    It’s hard to believe the hypocrisy that comes out of her mouth. Why is the onus on the immigrants to ‘not come here’ whether legally or illegally (I believe both categories are treated the same way).

    By whom? Not by me. Certainly not by the US government. Legal immigrants have to go through lots of hoops (more than are really necessary but that’s a slightly different issue). Their legal status grants them benefits that are not given to illegals. It also shows respect for, and dedication to, the process of becoming an American and learning to follow our customs, laws, and traditions.

    You can scream and call them criminals all you want. There are more legal people locked up in jail than there are illegal immigrants deported.

    So? What does that have to do with anything? That’s a disembodied fact that isn’t relevant to the issue.

    You are forgetting the one category Miss Haight who are perhaps the more culpable.

    That’s “Mrs. Haight” to you, bucko.

    That would be- you guessed it- the employers. Aren’t they the real criminals Miss Haight? The ones (legal citizens) who know it to be wrong and do it anyway- well that’s what I call hypocrisy.

    They are criminals, to be sure. “Real” is a term that isn’t relevant in this situation. The employers and the employees are both culpable. Wal-Mart, for example, was recently found to have a corporate policy of knowingly hiring illegal aliens and treating them like shit (lousy pay, long hours). That’s not cool.

    Sure let them work, but let us treat them like ‘dogs’.

    This is an interesting assumption; that people will, in the absence of any supervision, treat their employees poorly. It presumes a basic malevolence on the part of human beings, the whole “all slaveowners are cruel” concept.

    Although I agree that a gray market labor pool is more likely to be abused (because the employees are either ignorant or afraid to complain for fear of being deported, and the employers know this), I deny that premise that it automatically must be so.

    They are not good enough to give licenses to, but they’re certainly good enough to work.

    You’re attributing both of those attitudes to the same entity, which is not the case. What I mean is, the entity responsible for denying them driver’s licenses is the government, i.e., the legislature. The entity responsible for hiring them to work is the private sector, i.e. agricultural operations, individual citizens (for stuff like landscaping, housekeeping), etc.

    The bottom line, however, is that they should not receive either. They should not be employed and they should not be given any of the other benefits of legal residents.

    Perhaps anyone who hires them should be jailed and then you would see all the ‘criminals’ stop coming in.

    That would, in fact, be the way to stop it. If you remove the incentive, you remove the problem. In practice this has proven to be problematic.

    But until then I suggest that they come in droves and eventually displace you from that job you seem so proud of.

    I think I can safely say that no illegal immigrant is ever going to replace me in my job. I don’t file and staple things for a living. I do complex, precise work that requires a variety of skills above and beyond simple language fluency.

    In any case, if someone comes along who does my job better than I do, they are welcome to it. We all benefit by putting the best people in jobs. As you pointed out earlier, however, an illegal alien is not going to be hired by my company, nor should they be.

    I will forgive you because you really don’t know how to emphatize with people whose lifestyles you are not famailiar with,

    Whether or not I understand firsthand the plight of people in such a situation does not change the principles I apply to it. I can feel empathy for a person whose dog ran away (I’ve never owned a dog, so I have no firsthand understanding of it), but I will still believe that they should have put an ID collar on the dog, and kept it properly contained in the house or backyard.

    but on such issues please be quiet-

    Nope. Not going to do that.

    and by the way I hate to be the one to break this to you but not all illegal immigrants are limited to a 6th grade education-

    Yeah I’m sure the southwest deserts are just flooded by college graduates and astrophysicists.

    ofcourse in a normal individual who has compassion towards humans like yourself that should evoke a feeling of sympathy for those who have a limited education;

    Having sympathy for someone who is poorly educated doesn’t mean I should hire them to do something for which they are not qualified. At least I think that’s what you’re getting at. I don’t have any particular contempt for people who are poorly educated, as you imply. I do have a certain amount of contempt for people who don’t try to improve their knowledge and skills.

    but let us not forget that anyone can work in an office- we are actually not that impressed.

    It depends entirely on what the job is. You might as well say “anyone can work outdoors”. But doing what? Carpentry? Tilling fields? Picking strawberries? Surveying? Tracking wild animals for the forestry service? These jobs all have very different skill sets. Picking strawberries doesn’t require much of anything in the way of education or skills. Carpentry does.

    Filing, stapling, and collating doesn’t require as much skill or knowledge as (for example) the job I actually do.

  115. Dolores says:

    For all you ignorant people posting comments I would just like to say that it is sad that after Hitler’s time we are now stuck with arnold “the terminator” and his followers. People now in days forget we were all immigrants at one time or another. And if coming to this country to better oneself and one’s family is a crime, then so be it. It is easy to see that once people reach their so-called “American Dream” they forget about their, their families, or their ancestors struggle to reach America. We all have our reasons but the bottom line is that immigrants need a drivers license to get to work and school safely, it is enough to deal with everyday struggles and obstacles to then worry about being pulled over and have their vehicle taken away. But I guess some of you out there do not know what it is like to suffer or be hungry. May God be with you because what goes around comes around!!!

  116. Dolores says:

    To a “Shrike” who posted a comment on Oct. 14, 2004:
    Please go back to school and get an education. I AM MEXICAN and have done well for myself. I came here when I was four and have obtained a university degree by the age of twenty one. And for your information, I am not an exception, most of the immigrants who come to this country do so to better themselves and be part of a productive society. So before you make a comment use your brain and learn how to spell!

  117. eddie garcia says:

    anna height, how can you be like that. you have no compassion. these are not hardened criminals. these are people who violated immigration laws because they only want to bring food on tne table for their family. come on anna, your ancestors were outsiders too. study your history.

  118. Anne Haight says:

    I see Eddie is yet another individual who levels the same tired accusations over and over without ever exercising brain cells or bothering to actually read the comments section of this post before opening his yap.

  119. Linda Garcia says:

    Well, were should I start…this is indeed a topic that intreages me and I accidentaly came across it on a project research for my “Minority Groups” course…

    Now, I for one believe that there are only two sides one can take on “illegal immigration”… and clearly Mrs. Haight is a perfect example of a someone being against something that is the engine and backbone to this all might country. A question for you Mrs. Haight, are you or aren’t you aware of the fact that the bottom of this society’s pyramid is composed of illigal immigrants? It is a fact that all capitalist societies DEPEND on the exploitation of the (poor). “For this reason, they have an interst in (poverty), since if there were no have-nots, there could be no one to work for them, no one to rent their buildings, no one for whom wealth could be derived. This…means that capitalist societies…can never rid (themselves) of poverty. Poverty is the basis of wealth. The dependency of the rich on the poor is the fundamental hidden reality of this system.”Edna Bonacich

    Let’s review: In this country, who are the mayority of the poor, blacks, hispanics and OTHER minorities. Now where do illigal immigrants fall into place…I would imagine that they are the invisible category of the poor this nation…and they will remain the poor b/c of big-anglo-old brother. And so, you say Mrs Haight (I bet you LOVE the sound of your own name…I can tell by the person you portrait yourself to be…I could be wrong but, like I was saying) that giving Illigal Immigrants a drivers license is a privilage they are not intitled to resieve, I just don’t understand why is it so wrong to give them this so called privilage. If you dispise the thought of having laws that grant Illegal Immigrants rewards, then let’s take a look at how you might get benefit from it…

    Imagine if you ever get hit by a car (“God forbid ofcourse”) and that driver did not have a license…how would anyone be able to identify the driver and punish him for his actions? Now if this driver had a license wouldn’t the chances of catching that irresponsible driver be better?

    O.K, I can see you rolling your eyes, let me give you another possible benefit that could affect society as a whole Mrs. Haight…by improving its quality of individuals ofcourse…

    Every one knows that a drivers license is an ID, and is another way Big Brother can keep a record of us. The outcome of the misdemeanors we might do while driving will get our license revoked, and viceversa… So, by giving Illigal immigrants licenses, big brother can easily pick out those rotten apples who are free loader Illigals, (because there are some out there)….and benefit from those who come to achieve their american dream because they will be easily spoted. Therefore, the quality of individuals in society will improve.

    This would be indeed the charible thing to do for this charitable nation who seems to have this quality as an all American value. Help those in need, help those who help you, help them help themselves…help the backbone of this nation, why not? Illigal Immigrants indeed have no authorization to be here, but they are, and for many reasons, my values tell me there is nothing wrong with giving them that privilage, so I would LOVE for you Mrs. Haight to prove to me why on Earth we should not be compassionate to Illigal Immigrants? Just b/c they are Illigally here…being anIlligal does not rule anyone out of being human, of having needs. Since this capitalist benefits from Illigals in one way or another, they why not put into practice our values of welfare and help those who need a hand… Put yourself in their shoes just for a second…and give me a reason WHY THEY SHOULDN’T GET REWARDED. Why you might ask? Simply b/c i think…no wait, I know I have validated my reasons against your inhumane/racist/and typical anglo-attidue reasons…now if the above was your point of view…then I trully feel sorry for you and will always keep you in my prayers.

    Also, I hope that the education i’m getting and will continue to persue (as a native Guatemalan and a U.S citizen) will not turn me into a woman like you…

  120. Linda Garcia says:

    “and by the way I hate to be the one to break this to you but not all illegal immigrants are limited to a 6th grade education-”

    “Yeah I’m sure the southwest deserts are just flooded by college graduates and astrophysicists.”

    Yes is me again, I just couldn’t help to point this out to you Mrs. Hate…I mean Mrs. Haight…(forgive me, could not help it). Who says all illegal immigrants come from the southwest deserts?…Are Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador, Colombia, etc. desert countries? Some might have deserts I give you that but believe it or not they are not deserts and yes, there is such thing as colleges in Central and South America whose education standards are high, I am a living example of the type of education I got in Guatemala…when I immigrated I had finished my 5th grade in Guatemala and the material I viewing on 6th grade jhere I had already seen in 4th grade…and we are not talking about a public elementary school education, i enrolled in a private school in NYC…so…I think that as a professional you ought to know not get your passion for being so outspoken get intertwined with facts and points of view….

  121. Anne Haight says:

    Well, were should I start…this is indeed a topic that intreages me and I accidentaly came across it on a project research for my “Minority Groups” course…

    What, exactly, does that class entail? Study of how white people have oppressed brown people throughout history? Field trips to the local taqueria for a multicultural experience? I’m genuinely curious.

    Now, I for one believe that there are only two sides one can take on “illegal immigration”

    Well, there are only two sides. You’re for it, or against it. The reasons for either view may be complex but that’s the essential binary nature of the issue.

    … and clearly Mrs. Haight is a perfect example of a someone being against something that is the engine and backbone to this all might country. A question for you Mrs. Haight, are you or aren’t you aware of the fact that the bottom of this society’s pyramid is composed of illigal immigrants?

    I am not aware of any such “fact”, because no such “fact” exists.

    It is a fact that all capitalist societies DEPEND on the exploitation of the (poor). “For this reason, they have an interst in (poverty), since if there were no have-nots, there could be no one to work for them, no one to rent their buildings, no one for whom wealth could be derived. This…means that capitalist societies…can never rid (themselves) of poverty.

    No society of any kind can ever rid itself of poverty. There will always be people on top and people on bottom and people in the middle. Egalitarianism is not only economically impossible, but violates the laws of entropy at its core.

    Suppose you have 1,000 people in a town. Everybody is given $50,000 in cash and they all have exactly the same assets — a house, a car, some furniture, etc.

    Now what? Somebody decides they want a bigger TV, so they go buy one from the town’s electronics store for $400. Whoops! Now he only has 49,600 and somebody else has $50,400! He’s suddenly the poorest guy in town, and the electronics store owner is the richest! Quick, somebody call the ACLU!

    See where I’m going with this?

    Poverty is the basis of wealth.

    No, the mind is the basis of wealth. Creation, will, action — these are the ways wealth is made.

    The dependency of the rich on the poor is the fundamental hidden reality of this system.”Edna Bonacich

    And the poor are dependent on the rich. There is reciprocity in the system. Where do you think all the goods and services come from? Rich people get rich because they have researched, invented, manufactured, sold things to other people.

    Edna Bonacich’s degrees are in sociology, psychology, and English. She is not an economist, nor is she even a philosopher. It is not surprising that someone with an axe to grind about race and class warfare would view capitalism as an evil system, and it is not surprising that she would ignore — or simple be ignorant of — how economics actually works.

    Let’s review: In this country, who are the mayority of the poor, blacks, hispanics and OTHER minorities.

    Your grammar here is so bad that I don’t understand exactly what your point is, but I’m guessing that you’re pointing out that white people are a statistical minority in the United States when compared to non-whites. Well no shit, Sherlock. Did you have to go to private school in NYC to learn that? Are you going to tell me that the sun rises in the East next?

    Now where do illigal immigrants fall into place…I would imagine that they are the invisible category of the poor this nation…and they will remain the poor b/c of big-anglo-old brother.

    Will they? By what mechanism does “big-anglo-old brother” (whatever the hell that is) keep illegal immigrants poor?

    And so, you say Mrs Haight (I bet you LOVE the sound of your own name…I can tell by the person you portrait

    “Portray”, I think, was the word you wanted.

    yourself to be…I could be wrong but, like I was saying) that giving Illigal Immigrants a drivers license is a privilage they are not intitled to resieve, I just don’t understand why is it so wrong to give them this so called privilage.

    Because it is a privilege and not a right. Privileges are not given. They are earned.

    If you dispise the thought of having laws that grant Illegal Immigrants rewards, then let’s take a look at how you might get benefit from it…

    Rewards are not given. They are earned. A reward is something you give somebody when they do something to earn it.

    The fact that you equate these terms with concepts like “rights” and “earning” suggests an entitlement mindset — that people automatically are entitled to things because they want or need them, and not because they are worked for.

    Imagine if you ever get hit by a car (“God forbid ofcourse”) and that driver did not have a license…how would anyone be able to identify the driver and punish him for his actions? Now if this driver had a license wouldn’t the chances of catching that irresponsible driver be better?

    Not significantly. Also, your argument is not relevant.

    O.K, I can see you rolling your eyes, let me give you another possible benefit that could affect society as a whole Mrs. Haight…by improving its quality of individuals ofcourse…

    Every one knows that a drivers license is an ID, and is another way Big Brother can keep a record of us. The outcome of the misdemeanors we might do while driving will get our license revoked, and viceversa… So, by giving Illigal immigrants licenses, big brother can easily pick out those rotten apples who are free loader Illigals, (because there are some out there)….and benefit from those who come to achieve their american dream because they will be easily spoted. Therefore, the quality of individuals in society will improve.

    Criminals don’t play by the rules. The only people who can be accurately tracked in such a system are the law-abiding, which makes the system of no use in identifying outlaws.

    Also, that’s still not really relevant.

    This would be indeed the charible thing to do for this charitable nation who seems to have this quality as an all American value. Help those in need, help those who help you, help them help themselves…help the backbone of this nation, why not?

    Charity is helping those who cannot help themselves. Not those who will not help themselves. And not those who cut in line, break the law, and expect to be given hard-earned privileges and rewards without expending any effort for them. Illegal immigrants are line-jumping in front of people who come here legally and play by the rules. Is it fair to give an illegal immigrant a driver’s license when the guy next door has been waiting 3 years just to get a green card?

    Illigal Immigrants indeed have no authorization to be here, but they are, and for many reasons, my values tell me there is nothing wrong with giving them that privilage,

    Then your values are flawed and you should re-examine them.

    so I would LOVE for you Mrs. Haight to prove to me why on Earth we should not be compassionate to Illigal Immigrants? Just b/c they are Illigally here…being anIlligal does not rule anyone out of being human, of having needs. Since this capitalist benefits from Illigals in one way or another, they why not put into practice our values of welfare and help those who need a hand…

    You are in no position to judge, or even know, what charitable causes I am involved in.

    Put yourself in their shoes just for a second…and give me a reason WHY THEY SHOULDN’T GET REWARDED.

    Because they haven’t done anything to earn a reward.

    Why you might ask? Simply b/c i think…no wait, I know I have validated my reasons against your inhumane/racist/and typical anglo-attidue reasons…now if the above was your point of view…then I trully feel sorry for you and will always keep you in my prayers.

    I doubt that. I think you just want to appear to be compassionate and giving the way you are arguing that I should be. “Oh look, mean old Mrs. Hate is so cruel but I pity her and I will pray for her. See how much better a person I am than her?”

    Also, I hope that the education i’m getting and will continue to persue (as a native Guatemalan and a U.S citizen) will not turn me into a woman like you…

    I don’t think there’s any danger of that. You might want to go back and repeat elementary school. I shudder to think that someone could graduate from a private elementary school in NYC, much less college, with such atrocious language skills. You may find the real world to be somewhat less forgiving.

    “and by the way I hate to be the one to break this to you but not all illegal immigrants are limited to a 6th grade education-”

    “Yeah I’m sure the southwest deserts are just flooded by college graduates and astrophysicists.”

    Yes is me again, I just couldn’t help to point this out to you Mrs. Hate…I mean Mrs. Haight…(forgive me, could not help it).

    Finally, FINALLY somebody makes the obvious pun on my name! This blog has been up since July 2003 and I’ve received a truckload of vicious comments from so many people and you are THE FIRST PERSON to ever make that pun. I was starting to get really scared that all the juvenile namecalling had faded away from the minds of my critics, but you have restored my faith in mudslinging. Thank you Jesus.

    Who says all illegal immigrants come from the southwest deserts?…Are Mexico, Guatemala, El Salvador, Costa Rica, Panama, Ecuador, Colombia, etc. desert countries? Some might have deserts I give you that but believe it or not they are not deserts

    I was talking about the southwest United States. That’s where the border is. It’s mostly desert. Do I have to hold your hand through this one?

    My point is that people with higher educations are not the ones sneaking over the border in the middle of the night. Sheesh, talk about reading more into something than is there.

    and yes, there is such thing as colleges in Central and South America whose education standards are high, I am a living example of the type of education I got in Guatemala…when I immigrated I had finished my 5th grade in Guatemala and the material I viewing on 6th grade jhere I had already seen in 4th grade…and we are not talking about a public elementary school education, i enrolled in a private school in NYC…so…I think that as a professional you ought to know not get your passion for being so outspoken get intertwined with facts and points of view….

    You’re going on about your great Guatemalan education and your private school in NYC and you can’t even spell “illegal” correctly? And you came to the US in 6th grade? Your misspelled words include:

    intreages
    accidentaly
    illigal
    mayority
    intitled
    resieve
    privilage
    dispise
    charible
    trully
    persue

    I chose to view some other errors (including numerous failures to properly capitalize certain words) as typos.

    Of course, an inability to speak English properly is not limited to immigrants. There are plenty of native-born Americans who can’t do that. I blame our schools more than I blame our kids, but you should not be overly proud of your education.

  122. Jose L. says:

    Anne Haight… your so full of shit talking about mexicans like they are different people.. im was born in mexico and i finished school with awards and cirtifactes. and now attending collage .. this is what every family in the world wants from there kids to grow up with a better life with no fear of feeling different and having things they couldn’t have… n-e ways you dont know shit about mexican familys they need cars to take thier kids to school,doctor,to the park anywhere they want and need to be.. i think if no one can agree with immagrents having driver lic.. then the government schould make sure mexicans or other immagrents schould have permanet job to pay for insurance and make sure they keep that job and be able to read street signs in the streets and understanding what it means.. you won’t know shit till you live it………….. and i dont give a shit if i missed spelled any words.. im not being graded..

  123. jose L. says:

    Anne Haight..i forgot to say……..Fuck You…..

  124. Anne Haight says:

    Anne Haight… your so full of shit talking about mexicans like they are different people..

    How exactly am I doing that? And they are different people. They’re Mexican. There’s no implication of better or worse. I merely acknowledge the differences in culture and nationality.

    My criticisms are not leveled at Mexicans, per se, but at illegal immigrants of all origins (not just Mexico).

    im was born in mexico and i finished school with awards and cirtifactes. and now attending collage .. this is what every family in the world wants from there kids to grow up with a better life with no fear of feeling different and having things they couldn’t have…

    And?

    n-e ways you dont know shit about mexican familys

    You just finished imforming me that Mexicans aren’t different people, and now you’re criticizing me for not understanding how you’re different?

    they need cars to take thier kids to school,doctor,to the park anywhere they want and need to be..

    Um, yeah. And Mexicans are the only people in the world who do that?

    i think if no one can agree with immagrents having driver lic.. then the government schould make sure mexicans or other immagrents schould have permanet job to pay for insurance and make sure they keep that job

    I barely know where to start with explaining the problems with that idea. Permanent jobs? Job security? That’s an entirely different category of Bad Economic Ideas™.

    and be able to read street signs in the streets and understanding what it means..

    If by that you mean that immigrants should learn to speak English, I agree.

    you won’t know shit till you live it………….. and i dont give a shit if i missed spelled any words.. im not being graded..

    Your problems with communicating effectively in English go way beyond spelling errors, I assure you.

    ..i forgot to say……..Fuck You…..

    Not a problem. It just wouldn’t be complete without the obligatory name-calling.

  125. Liliana says:

    Originally I came on this site for research I am doing, for a speach class I have. I am a naturalized citizen here, however I feel very diferent from your views Anne. I am not here to critisize your views, but to express mine just as you have in the beginning of you website.
    First and foremost I completly agree about the Matricula situation in California, however my view on drivers licenses is that they should not be given away, that would be stupid, but be granted under certain restrictions and tests. After all driving is a privalege not a right.
    Most illegal immigrants are not criminals, you say that they should not be granted licenses because they have broken the law, but what about the legal citizens who break the law and still get to drive around. The real criminals who rob, kill, drive under the influence. Most illegal immigrants who come to this country come because the situation in other countries are horrible. Our country has a lot of flaws, (i.e. Bush) however we still are imensly lucky to live in country with freedom do succed if we take advantage of the education we are entitled here. Most illegal immigrants who come her know this, if anything I think they might love this country more than regular citizens, if not so, they certaily do appreciate it more. Illegal immigrants come to work but not just for themselves, but for there kids and a better future, that unfortunatly is not a available in the country of origin. I would really recomend you watching 2 specific movies, “El Norte” (academy award winner) and “Hotel Rwanda”. Both of which were done in excellence and are true stories not just some fictional fabrication to get you emotional. To call illegal immigrants criminals is, in my view, very unjust. However if you still feel this way, I hope you think of me and those movies, the next time you walk into your local fast food restaurant, go to a hotel in California, or see a gardener working in a public grounds. Because this country is quick to call them criminals but when they want to save a dollar they are just as quick to call any illegal immigrant quoting the lowest price.

    Thank you for your attention, and I only hope you watch what words you use before you go and call my parents criminals because I can assure you that no criminals could have brought me up this way.

  126. Nigel says:

    I would like to correct one myth here. There has been an assumption that legal residents are able to get drivers licences. That is not true. I am a legal resident yet I have been told by DMV that I am not entitled to a California drivers licence. DMV told me that I am entitled to drive in California on my Washington State drivers licence until that expires, after which I am entitled to drive on my British drivers licence until that expires (being 2032, as British drivers licences expire on your 70th birthday). DMV told me I can do this even though I have abandoned residence in both England and in Washington State.

    The reason I cannot get a California drivers licence is that I last entered the country with a I-94W (not an I-94 because British citizens do not require visas), and I adjusted status (my wife is a US citizen) and am in receipt of an I-797C, allowing me to reside in the USA. DMV claimed that only an current I-94 form or an I-797 is on the list of documents. DMV accept that I am here legally and they were very apologetic, but the documents were not on the list.

    The silly thing is I don’t care. It is not in my interest that the State of California has record of my being here and can track my traffic violations, etc. I would have thought that the State would have an interest in issuing me a California licence so they have a record of me.

    The problem is that US immigration law is very complex, and people who’s job it is to ensure unsafe or uninsured drivers are removed from the roads have now expected to become immigration officers. This has comprimised their ability to keep track of drivers.

  127. kristin says:

    I found this site while doing research and I was just wondering why Mexicans want to “take back” what they think we stole. I mean they are obviously leaving Mexico to come here for a reason. So why destroy the system that helps with 7.7 billion in education and 1.4 billion in health care for illegals in California alone.

  128. astonished says:

    I dont understand that if people are willing to do all the work to get into the US illegally why dont they just use that energy and time and work to become a legal citizen?

  129. A.A. says:

    The pros of the bill are presented this way; there are an estimated 2 million illegal aliens driving on the roads of California. Allowing these aliens to obtain a drivers license will increase safety through the testing and review functions of the DMV for all applicants. Obtaining a license will also allow aliens to obtain auto insurance, since insurance companies will only insure licensed drivers. This will benefit all California drivers by allowing insurance rates to decrease, due to fewer uninsured motorists posing a liability on the roads. And the warm and fuzzy benefit is that the illegal alien community will be recognized for its contribution to California’s economy by its work and presence.
    The cons go like this: There are an estimated 2 million illegal aliens who should not even be here. Rewarding them for breaking the law is contrary to our entire system of laws. Getting a license will not make them better, safer drivers, nor will it make them purchase insurance. They are already breaking the law and driving uninsured. What is the motivation a driver’s license will supply to stop them? And as for the warm and fuzzy, how about allowing the jobs they have to go to unemployed citizens? And here is another thing; such lax standards will allow more people to obtain fake identification, and in light of September 11th, can we risk that?
    ——– To Anne Haight ——- Please stick with your argument and make valid points instead of spell checking others!!!

  130. John Wood says:

    The DMV, the only government body that does what they want, when they want, has always stated and operated under the rule that driving is a priveledge and not a right. And now all this crap!! It makes me sick on top of my raises going to health care for the past 3 years to pay for these individuals. You people need to WAKE UP!!

  131. crush says:

    Man you are just talking BS. there are so many ignorant people like you its not even funny.First of all i see that you refer to mexicans as the only immigrans, yes i see you have nothing against mexicans but when you try to say another race u say “other”. Second the latino population (because its not just mexicans its also cubans,colombians,argentinians and so on) is only 13% in the whole U.S.A. black and others are like 10% See census report. White people are the majority.whats the big deal with
    leting 13% of our population get a drivers license. oh and what the fuc* is up with terrorist talk in here. if any person wanted to attack anything in the us belive me the lack of a license will definetly not stop them. i have cousins coming in and out of th us illegaly all the time and they drive here. trust me this license is nothing. if you wanna change ur country there are more important things to do than to just WRITE about how much you want to bother illegal aliens cuz driving with out a license is no biggie lots of people do it

  132. Krunt says:

    i think that if you own a house (USA) and a burglar (illegal immigrant) comes in you have the right to blow his head off.
    If your for it leave your address, here cause it would solve the homeless problem this country has. You won’t mind.. You don’t mind people being here illegally.

    Force people on welfare to do thier jobs or kick em off welfare.

    I don’t care if he is mexican, black , white ,green, yellow, rainbow colored. He is in my house unwelcomed.

    Fix america first….

  133. Joan says:

    Hello. I am a sixteen year old girl living in California. I am an illegal immigrant. My parent’s and I came here when I was only seven years old. My family and I didn’t come here illegally, we came over with passports though the Mexico and Texas border in Cuidad Juarez which is right next to El Paso Texas. We’ve been living here since. We came to the United States looking for a better life. We had everything while we lived in Mexico, great house, family, our community was great but we wanted a better life due to the problems with the economy. Never in my life did I dream of living in the United States. I am going to be a junior this fall at my local high school. My parents make a decent living. My father is a car sales man and my mom is a seamstress. We aren’t wealthy but we have enough money to live. We pay taxes like any other family. We contribute to our community by volunteering. I am thankful that now I can go to college due to the AB 540 that allows illegal immigrants to attend college. I am not a slacker in school, neither are my two sisters. We get good grades, and participate in many sports. We are like any other typical teenagers, we go to school and play our sport, always give it a hundred percent. I wake up everyday and I see all of my friends driving to school, talk about how amazing it is to drive and have freedom. They ask me why don’t I drive and I answer “My mom won’t let me” but the truth is that I can’t drive because I don’t have a license. A social security number is more than just a number but a person, to feel like you matter, to vote, to count, to be part of the United States is something that I’m not. We are nobody without that number; our opinion doesn’t count, although we pay taxes, it doesn’t matter. I understand American’s concern to give license to illegal immigrants due to 9/11. I can’t say I know how to solve this problem because I don’t. All I want to say is to give us decent hardworking illegal immigrants a chance to prove to the Representatives and to give other decent illegal immigrants who come to the United States looking for a better life United States that we deserve to be treated equally. It is a necessity to drive. We need to get to work, to school, to sports, and anything else that isn’t walking distance. I dream of one day working at the United States House Representatives to give DECENT illegal immigrants a chance.

    Thank You,

    Jane Doe

  134. Anne Haight says:

    Joan,

    Your dedication to getting an education and being a part of the American dream is commendable, and you’re not to blame for entering the country illegally since you were just a child and your parents brought you.

    I’m curious, however, whether your parents applied to become citizens, or even just legal residents (green card). They came here on visas, presumably overstayed their visa, and settled down but never went through the process of citizenship?

    What about you? You’re in high school and plan to enter college under AB 540 without becoming a citizen? Do you have any plans to apply for citizen or legal residency? Why not? Are you paying to go to college? Or is there some government program that educates you using my tax dollars?

    At the moment you turn 18 and are still an illegal immigrant, you are a freeloader and I do not welcome you. You cannot legally get a job, or health insurance, and you become a drain on society by using social welfare programs (such as going to the emergency room for free medical care).

    You do not need a car. You can travel to work, school, shopping on public transit. Yes, it’s inconvenient and time-consuming compared to having a car. But a driver’s license is a privilege of legal residents. It is not a survival requirement or a right.

    You complain about being “nobody” without a social security number, of “not counting” even though you pay taxes.

    It is not America who is excluding you. You have chosen that yourself by remaining illegal residents of this country. You even lie to your friends about it.

    You say you want a chance. I’m fully willing to give you that chance, but you need to ask your parents why they have lived here for so long and not become citizens. Perhaps because once their status is known, they will be deported, and so will you?

    I think that once you turn 18, you can apply for citizenship legally without risk of being deported since you were brought here essentially against your will as a minor by your family. You may wish to investigate this.

    But although I sympathize with your situation, and agree that immigration law in the United States is very broken, I cannot condone anyone living here who wants the full privileges of citizenship after having violated the rules for getting it. There are many, many people who came into this country the right way, applied for citizenship, and participate fully as productive citizens. Those people I welcome with open arms. Your family cheated, essentially cut in line in front of those people.

    My tax money pays for programs that lured your parents here and make it possible for you to continue living in limbo, getting an education, aspiring to Congress. Do you understand that I resent that? Do you understand that Congress will never be in your reach unless you become a citizen of this country? Do you understand that Congress shouldn’t be in your reach otherwise?

  135. Anne H says:

    crush,
    whats the big deal with leting 13% of our population get a drivers license.

    What’s the big deal with letting 13% of the population steal whenever they feel like it? What’s the big deal with letting 13% of the population take $100 out of my bank account every month? Heck, we even know who they are and we’ll give them a permit to do it.

    Do you get it yet?

  136. Brit says:

    Okay, I have a few thoughts.

    First, for the very angry illegal mexican immigrants who have posted here…
    I don’t know what states you are currently in, but from the sounds of it, California.
    Try doing some research or visit the mid-atlantic region sometime. There are a lot of illegal mexican immigrants here also, you see, we too, have a lot of farmland. I am not of the middle-class, and sure as hell not upper class. I grew up fairly poor, and by that, I mean we went long periods of time without power, without clean water, without any food other than that which we grew and picked ourselves. Growing up in southern New Jersey, I washed dishes and picked up trash, I cleaned houses & hotel rooms, I even did my fair share of picking through dumpsters and trash cans to collect bottles, etc. Lots of “whites” in the country do that. And a lot of “whites” in this country are worse off than I ever was.
    My car was built in the GM plant in Michigan, at which my grandfather worked hard on the assembly line (along with many, many other “whites”, in addition to many legal immigrants, black & hispanic US citizens).
    I wash my own dishes, I grow, pick and clean my own veggies, my meats & cheeses are obtained from a local cattle farm here in Maryland, where only legal citizens are employed.
    My husband also grew up very poor, living much the same way that I did after his father died of cancer and left his mother (who hadn’t finished school or worked a laborous day in her life) with 7 children to raise alone with no more money than what she reaped in social security benefits.
    My husband worked job after job during high school, and was the first of his siblings to graduate, the others all dropped out when they were old enough to obtain legal working permits and helped their mother. After high school, he went into the military. They trained him in a trade, and after his honorable discharge, he went to work, full time. He has a decent job now, but life is surely not comfortable. We have 3 children and because of the current costs of legal childcare, we cannot afford for me to go to work. Two years ago, our oldest was ready to go to pre-kindergarten when we found out that due to the “no child left behind” laws that were passed, my children would be left behind. We are white, the majority here in Maryland, and therefore, my children have to take a back seat to the children in the minority… no matter how poor or rich we are. If, after all of the minority children had enrolled by the cutoff date, there were openings in the classes, beginning with the poorest families, she could have gone. That didn’t happen, and it wasn’t until I complained and sent letters, that I found out that 40% of the children who did make it into the pre-k class at her school were illegal immigrants, NONE of which even live in our town! They are all bussed here from a town rougly 20 miles north of here.
    We are living in Maryland now because 3 years ago, in addition to many of my coworkers, I lost my minimum-wage job to people who were willing to work for less than that. Which brings me to another point I want to make.
    What makes anyone believe that if we make illegal immigrants legal, they will still work for less than minimum wage? Mexican people are not stupid. If they become legal immigrants of the US, they will be entitled to the same protection under labor laws that we are entitled to. And in my opinion, that’s the way it should be. I think a person who comes to this country illegally, and takes no steps to become legal, and continues to work for less than minimum wage is either stupid or completely incapable of seeing things in the long run. By investing the time that it takes to become legal, you reap much larger benefits down the road.
    Another quick point… what makes me think that people who come to this country illegally don’t want to live as US citizens and appreciate the law and the land? Well, read that question back to yourself, out loud if you must, and consider tell me why that is a stupid question. By the simple fact that they are here illegally proves that they have no respect or consideration for the law. The fact that they drive without licenses or insurance, two things which even us “whites” are required to have in order to drive is living proof that once they are here, they will continue to live outside of the law.
    In closing, this is not a racial topic. It’s a legal topic. This isn’t about “whites”, etc. This is about ALL people who enter this country ILLEGALLY and live their lives ILLEGALLY. I, am not against legal immigration, if I were, my fathers family would never have come here, and I would never have been born. I think people who throw words like those around are bigots. This is not about race, it’s about citizenship. I believe, that in my lifetime, I have met more non-white bigots than white ones… and considering how hard the black, hispanic and many white US Citizens have worked to erase that racial line in the law, anyone bringing race into this subject needs to consider their own racism before jumping to the conclusion that we are bigots.

  137. Leonardo Dicaprio says:

    everybody please! why so much hate to illegal immigrants? lets face it, most americans and legal immigrants hate, detest, or do not want illegal immigrants in here simply because they are not the problem they are not illegal. my dad was an illegal italian and i was lucky to be born here in america and be a succesfull actor but what if my dad had never came here illegaly? i do not want to argue i simply want to say that they could never understand this situation simply because they are not human enough to put themselves in their position, “the illegal position.” therefore they will fight their last word into keeping illegal immigrants from getting licenses.

    Anne please write back

  138. Pancho says:

    I think that you are all full of bullshit

  139. Polly Bizal says:

    I have deep concerns regarding the mexican immigrant commentson this website. All yall MO Fos have no idea who u F***ing with. MY man is a beanner and he aint dealing THAT much. stop frontin

  140. Master Bates says:

    I agree with my nigga Bizzle! u r all full of bullshit

  141. RandomMexican says:

    Anus

  142. these nutz! says:

    Yo! I like to say that my niggaz from the hood like having our friends from the other side of the border, ya her”d

  143. Luis Iracheta Martinez says:

    I understand all your concerns about your border and your economy but you cannot label the illegal immigrants as criminals, they do not try to break any law, they are just trying to get a better way of living. The real criminals are those from the gobernment, police and unions, that don’t want anything to change in their countries. They foster corruption, drugs and frauds are the most usual. Yet the laws are so dull that in Mexico for example few of them put a foot in the jail, police take it part from street crime and everything is a strugle to keep their positions in the gobernment and public funds. They are the real criminals. They do not care poverty, public healt or education for the population. If people run away to the United States It’s ok they still get their part from the 2000 dollars every illegal immigrant pays to pursue the american dream.

  144. eddie says:

    THE AMERICAN PEOPLE IS IGNORANT HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT HISPANIC ARE BAD IN THE UNITED STATES. I BET NONE OF YOU WILL PICK YOUR OWN LETTUCE OR TOMATOES OR ANY FRUIT AND VEGESTABLES THAT YOU EAT. BECUASE SINCE WERE IN AMERICA WE WANT EVERYTHING EASY WELL. YOU GUYS ARE A BUNCH OF UN EDUCATED PEOPLE BECUASE WITH OUT THE IMMIGRANTS THAT COME FROM MEXICO AND LATIN AMERICA YOU WOULD NOT BE ABLE TO EAT THOSE BIG MAC AND WOPPERS BECUASE WHO ELSE IS GOING TO WORK IN THE FIELDS I KNOW A WHITE MAN WONT. WHY BECUASE YOU WOULD NOT LAST A WHOLE DAY. IF YOU GUYS THINK THAT YOU GET YOUR FOOD SERVE BY A BUNCH OF CITIZENS I CAN TELL YOU THAT THE POPULATION THAT DOES IT IS BOT ANY HIGHER THAN TEN PERCENT. YOU TO ALL YOU IGNORANT PEOPLE THAT THINK WORKING IN THE FIELDS IS EASY THIS GOES TO YOU GUYY.

  145. John Becker says:

    A few thoughts on this issue. First, if you’re a latino, stop saying that your race is going to take control of the United States. That does nothing but offend the White Americans who hold dear to their heart their control over the minorities. You will get no where showing your arrogance.
    For the white supremacists and the others who do not realize that illegal immigrants are humans:
    WE ARE HUMANS! You may not want to give us the respect that you owe us. You may not want to recognize us. You may not want to help us the way we’ve helped this country but the fact of the matter is that we will be in this nation, we will support its economy, and we will make it the world’s only superpower- just as we have for the last decade. Now to an issue that i’m deeply passionate about because it affects me so much: the children who were brought here illegaly and are now entangled in a web of barriers preventing their success. I was brought here on a visa and overstayed because the situation at home was no longuer favorarble. Ever since I have been an illegal and have had to realize that I was no longuer like my peers- all because a few American citizens believe that they are better than the rest of us. Well guess what: SCREW YOU…. (I just had to get that out).
    Now to those that call us criminals: SCREW YOU. I know that you may believe yourself so intelligent because you were able to figure out the base significance of the word “illigal” and the fact that it denotes “criminal”. What your ignorant mind has left out is that the word “criminal” has gained a connetation that leads the audience to believe that the participant has voluntarily and directly worsened the life of others. Illegal Immigrants in no way fit such descriptions. They are only here to help themselves while tremendously aiding the population of the country which has nurtured them- and that is the reason for which the politicians have allowed them to enter and survive in this country.

    Illigal immigrants are a vital part of this nation. They will stay here and they will prosper in the unfriendly environments. GET OVER IT! If you won’t help us, we’ll help ourselves. One day you will realize how we have increased the worth of this nation, and then, perhaps God will allow you to become a better citizen and help your fellow compatriots.

    so long fucker…

  146. Luke Davis says:

    From Merriam-Webster online: “illegal, adj.: not according to or authorized by law; UNLAWFUL, ILLICIT.” (http://www.webster.com/dictionary/illegal)

    So, to recap that, illegal means in violation of the laws of an establishment.

    The United States of America qualifies as an establishment, and it has laws specifying the processes by which one may enter the country and gain citizenship. That is, the U.S. has laws about how to immigrate.

    Definitionally, immigrating in accordance with these laws is “legal immigration.” That is, following the U.S. immigration laws is legal.

    Again, definitionally, immigrating in violation of these laws is “illegal immigration.” That is, not following (breaking) the U.S. immigration laws is illegal.

    These are just definitions.

    More definitions: “crime, noun: 1) an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law; especially : a gross violation of law.” (again, M-W online: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/crime) That is, a crime is a violation of a law.

    If “illegal” means “in violation of a law”, and a “crime” is “a violation of the law”, then crimes are illegal. Since “criminal” is just the adj. describing crime-type actions, “criminal” and “illegal” are synonymous–that is, criminal and illegal MEAN THE SAME THING.

    Again, just definitions.

    A core premise of Anne and Kyle Haight’s arguments is based on the above. It could be reformulated as (8) below, which is demonstrated by the following line of reasoning:
    1) Illegal = against the law.
    2) Criminal = against the law.
    Therefore, 3) Illegal = criminal.

    Then–put on your complex logic hat here–
    4) “Illegal immigrants” are illegal.
    Therefore, 5) “Illegal immigrants” are criminal.

    Finally–keep that hat on!–
    6) Our judicial system is supposed to be geared to ensure that criminals are punished by law-specified sanctions.
    7) The law-specified sanction for breaking immigration law is deportation.
    Therefore, 8) Our judicial system is supposed to be geared to ensure that illegal immigrants are deported.

    One might question premise (6), but one might also think about it and decide that would be dumb.

  147. distant sky says:

    u guys have to remember we are all one people on one earth. Countries are not real they are made up to seperate people from each other.

  148. Richie Rich says:

    I don’t know how old some of you are nor how you look like; but I’ve already seen you’re immature and I bet you probably have bad temper and nobody likes you. Because you having all those negative thoughts and nothing positive about them makes me think that way. Because if you were happy with yourself, you wouldn’t have such hatred for illegal immigrants. But it is not only that, but a lot of things you’re not happy with. But the real reason is that you have low or no self esteem, are insecure and disgusted with yourself and some how you try to blame other people for your failures.

    A successful person is not somebody that has money or knows important people, or has a good job; a successful person is one that has the goods, but is also in peace with him or herself and has true friends and family that love him or her.
    A prosperous person is not somebody that has all the good things money can buy; a prosperous person is one that prospers in everything they set their hands and mind to do. I don’t say this because of lack of money; I thank God I have plenty of it made in a legal manner being illegally for a while in this country. This shows all of you “Racist Americans” (Normal Americans don’t get offended, I said “Racist Americans” no just Americans) that there’s no excuse for being broke and unwilling and blame it on illegal immigrants.

    The only person responsible for all your failures is yourself. What are you going to say to your kids when there’s no food on their table? Is it because of illegal immigrants that you don’t have food on your table? Are you saying that an illegal immigrant with low or no education and skills which doesn’t even speak English is outsmarting you fine, educated and skilled people? Do you even know how pathetic that sounds? But you rather be couch potatoes and watch TV all day and get up late, and when the bills pile up instead of thinking you can’t pay them because you don’t go out and really find a job, the easiest thing to do is to blame it on the “ignorant, low educated, unskilled, job- taking Mexican right?” Wrong, if we were all of the above, how come we survive, outsmart you and make it in this country when you having a Social Security and a Drivers License can’t even make it and are complaining about it?

    Consider the ant oh slothful and learn from its ways. Where there’s a will there’s a way. I am a successful person, have my own business and employ many white Americans as well as other people. I don’t have a college degree nor even finished high school, in fact I never went. I dropped the 8th grade in Mexico and haven’t set my foot on any school. I taught myself English with a notebook, a pen and an English/Spanish dictionary and learned it in 9 months. Now think about it for a moment. I did not take your job to begin with because even knowing the language I couldn’t find a decent job, because of my illegal status at that time, and had to wash dishes and clean houses and do construction work which you don’t want to do. And now, I’ve created jobs for the American people. Me, a person who used to be an illegal immigrant in this beautiful country which I love and am so grateful to. I too came here when I was a boy and remained illegal until 3 years ago. I didn’t have a saying if I wanted to come; in fact I didn’t want to come because I heard a lot of bad stories about America. It took me 15 years to finally reach legal status. But you think it’s very easy to say: “Hey, why don’t you wait until come here legally?”
    No body knows how bad the pain from a cut is, but the one experiencing it.

    And America is not your country, is everybody’s country. Founded by illegal immigrants, and if its purpose was not to have any, it wouldn’t be the most powerful country it is and wouldn’t have all the riches because each and every one of us contribute with our own seed to make it what it is. Most of you are “dumbed-down” and live like robots; everybody knows the same thing, complaints about the same thing and do the popular thing. Like the MATRIX movie, you live in a dream world that keeps you under control only not computer generated. And if somebody wants to give you the red pill so you can know the truth, you take the blue one because you like to be “robotized”.

    And by the way, just because people don’t know how to write doesn’t mean they don’t have a right to an opinion.
    But it doesn’t matter what people think, hatred is hatred and you’ll always disagree because it has been three years since this debate started and everybody still have hatred for illegal immigrants in spite of what reasons people give. Because “what good does to a man having money to purchase wisdom, not having understanding?” People WERE NOT given the right to choose where and/or how they were to be born. No body in their right mind would choose to be poor, or ugly, or have Down syndrome, or birth defects etc. But if any of you “racist people” were born in a poor country like those poor African countries where all they see and eat is dust, you’d be seeing things from a different perspective and wouldn’t be so up-tight and closed-minded.

    But if in fact there were illegal aliens and by that I mean, aliens that are from out of space trying to take over the world; then all mankind will understand that we all bleed the same, and are alike but just in five different colors which are: Red, Black, White, Brown and Yellow; same colors of the dirt of the earth. (Meditate on that for a moment) And then we would be unanimous in one accord against them not against each other.

  149. Sara says:

    i know this is a touchy subject for us all, and i’ve read many of your comments. I just want to add to what a lot of you have said about picking fruit and vegetables, scrubbing dishes and so forth. I am a white american female, I have been on my hands and knees daily scrubbing floors to put myself through school, until the day came that my boss found an illegal immigrant that would work for less money than I could agree to. I lost my job, and I’m barely making it right now. I’ve had to drop out of college because I simply cant afford it.

    And please, stop with the racist stuff. I mean, really illegal immigrants are not all from Mexico, we have just as many coming from Canada, its just not publicized as much. Everyone is making assumptions about everyone else. I grew up on a farm where we all worked everyday in the heat to make a living. Just because I’m white doesnt mean we have it easy. Try valuing eachother for our differences instead of generalizing so much that we cant appreciate them.

    I understand the need for a better life in America, but at the same time look at the people who have been trying so hard to come to this country legally. People in other countries who have it just as bad as say those in Mexico, maybe worse, but have stuck to their morals and principles and come here legally. It is not fair to those who have worked so hard for citizenship for us to just give out privilages to those who didnt.

  150. N/A says:

    i hate these fuckin’ beaners.we should kill all the illegals and put the bodies on the boarder to deter any others that are thinkin about illegaly crossing the boarder!!!!!!!!!!

  151. Anonymous says:

    fuckin’ beaner spics

  152. Anne Haight says:

    The poster of the previous 2 comments has been IP banned for comment spamming.

  153. Kapila says:

    You guys all shout so much about illegal immigrants and yet go and vote in both democrats & Mccain who support Amnesty & path to legalisation of illegals…what the heck is this oxymoron???Can anyone explain that when the white folks go and vote these idiots into power and then yet they complain illegals immigration..I guess most of you must like illegal immigration othwerise you would not have ousted both Huckaby from the race and put deomcrats into power who wants Amnesty for 20 million!!!

  154. Anne Haight says:

    Kapila, you’re making a generalization about how you think people vote. This is not a valid argument. You know nothing about how I vote, or how the other commenters vote.

  155. Kyle Haight says:

    Just to add an empirical observation here — I live in California. By the time the CA primary took place this year, the best candidate on illegal immigration issues (Fred Thompson) had long since dropped out. You cannot logically blame a voter in my position for failing to vote in support of a candidate who was no longer running when my vote took place.

  156. Nelly says:

    With all the respect to all of you,
    I would like to say that there are ‘Hispanic’ illegal immigrants that come into the country and affect our everyday lives. However, there are those illegal immigrants that were brought here at such young ages that are struggling because they do not know any other life but the one in the States. I know about a girl who was brought here at the age of six and still to this day she is struggling trying to make ends meet, but there are no ends for her. I mean, could you send her back to Mexico to a life she has never known? She has been living in the States all her life. She was not able to decide as a young child to stay in Mexico or to come to the United States. Yet, she has to withstand all of this locomotion. It is a very difficult life for these people believe it or not because some of them should be citizens here. She pays taxes, goes to college to better her future (what future?),she owns a 2007 Toyota Camry. And you know what makes all of this happen for her? MONEY! Money makes her world go round as much as all the people that work in the government. Politicians do not care what you think about your insurance premiums, your tax money or your priveleges. When we vote it is our ‘popular vote’ that counts. Ultimately, it is up to the Electoral College and you know who they are? People with the MONEY. People who vote people in to keep the money coming to them. The system is a distortion of true democracy. Please, be realistic that it is not these peoples fault that they are led to leave their families for a ‘better life’ because their own government is corrupt. Do you really think they want to put up with what they are exposed to? You best believe that a lot of them don’t.

  157. karl says:

    i hate mexicans i love lesbians byahhaa

  158. james says:

    dude, mccain had already won by the time alot of our primaries came around, and the sad fact is that there werent alot of candidates with good stances on this issue in the first place. we vote from what we are given.

  159. ABBY says:

    you guys are effin stupid. All the fucking hard workers are mexicans. Yeah its true that mexican immagrants have been here but if you get to see Mexico they come to U.S to make their lifes better by working hard. Most people that are from here dont try as hard as immagrants do because its so easy for them to get anywhere. Immagrants dont get as far as universities sometimes because of discrimination you guys have to come to a solution if africans and jews came to a solution so can mexicans illigal and legal. You guys are being selfish and naive because of how you respond to them being here.

  160. Manuela says:

    I came here legally from X country in South America seven (7) years ago, I came as a permanent residence. I apply to come legally and did everything accordingly, paper work, including criminal back ground check, education, health history, aids check, vaccination proof, a long etc… followed the rules, the law. The process took four years but I am glad I waited and came legally and after five years (this is the time you have to wait) as a permanent resident, I applied for my citizenship which I got. Now I am an American citizen, I did everything by the book. I love USA the same way I love the country in which I was born, but it is frustrating how schizophrenic is turning..illegal is illegal period.
    We legals went step by step, but illegals skip all the process and then claim “rights”
    By the way, don’t say that immigrants don’t continue education or drop out because of racism… see people from India, Korea, Nigeria, Kenya, China etc… they are educated and don’t act like victims blaming others like Hispanics do of racism… to remain as the lowest educated people.

  161. luis n. says:

    why often people judge immigrants what makes them better or give the right to judge them with out givin them a chace t prove them slfs worth of trust…i know i cant judge no one for this lil but also a big problom that i know most off us have beacuse no one is perfect in this world.this country was based on slavery an immagrants why should we label people. how come when the people came to invade the indians territorry they did not told them enything or did something about it till when us the usa sitezens desided to get more land….y the more we have the more we want …

  162. chuy says:

    access to a driver’s license and the ability to obtain auto insurance provides the potential for increase in safety and decreased cost of insurance. If no unlicensed drivers obtain insurance, we are not in a worse position than we are currently. However if the bill was to pass and if many do obtain insurance California has a chance of benefiting, National safety is not more threatened by the issuing of a California driver’s license under the new standards than it was under the old. In fact two of the terrorist pilots in the attack of September 11th received official identifications from the Federal Government. They would have been able to get a California driver’s license even before SB60. The problem was that the supporting documents required for identification can be easily forged. Birthday certificates, foreign identification, and passports can be faked by organizations with the proper resources; even citizens of this Country just look at the incident rate of identity theft. Identification such as biometric data could be required, but colleting that sort of data expensively can lead to violations of personal liberty and privacy. If in fact, an earlier version of SB60 called for such data to be collected, and was stricken by due to objections on just such invasive concerns. Since any system can be bypass by fraud beyond its control ability to discover, no matter how strict a requirement it has, does it make sense to increase those requirements to the exclusion of legitimate person, when the increase will effect no change?

  163. Karen says:

    What many do not understand when you have been victim of violent crimes, hurt, without work, & homeless you feel that most do not care. We are not being protected, our borders are not given the support, our law enforcement officers that are protecting us are not being supported, and many Americans are homeless with their children that cannot get work. Employers are not being held accountable and not hiring Americans. When we are victims of violent crimes by illegal aliens & gangs, we lose our work, cannot afford medical care, the offenders not held accountable, and we are retaliated against if we request help. Why are there so many illegals and why is our elected officials that are supposed to be serving American citizens not protecting & serving US? I wished those serving America would understand American citizens needs to have a way to live in their own Country, a way to support themselves, a way to receive medical care, educations, and work. Too many illegal aliens and gangs are running rampant all throughout America.

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