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	<title>Comments on: Something I Don&#8217;t Comprehend</title>
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	<description>Kyle and Anne Haight: Annoying People In Stereo Since 1971</description>
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		<title>By: Kyle Haight</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/252.html/comment-page-1#comment-1638</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle Haight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 20 Oct 2004 00:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=252#comment-1638</guid>
		<description>When faced with someone that logic won&#039;t reach, I typically abort the discussion.  Argument almost by definition is based on adducing facts and logical connections.  If someone isn&#039;t moved by facts and logic, then what you&#039;re having isn&#039;t an argument.  It&#039;s simply psychological manipulation.  At that point my goal is just to sow a few seeds of cognitive dissonance and then get on with my life.

It&#039;s also worth noting that just about any position can be made to appear ridiculous by pushing it to an out-of-context extreme.  And in my own arguments I really try to avoid introducing religious elements on account of what I&#039;m an atheist.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When faced with someone that logic won&#8217;t reach, I typically abort the discussion.  Argument almost by definition is based on adducing facts and logical connections.  If someone isn&#8217;t moved by facts and logic, then what you&#8217;re having isn&#8217;t an argument.  It&#8217;s simply psychological manipulation.  At that point my goal is just to sow a few seeds of cognitive dissonance and then get on with my life.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also worth noting that just about any position can be made to appear ridiculous by pushing it to an out-of-context extreme.  And in my own arguments I really try to avoid introducing religious elements on account of what I&#8217;m an atheist.</p>
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		<title>By: Al</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/252.html/comment-page-1#comment-1637</link>
		<dc:creator>Al</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2004 20:22:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=252#comment-1637</guid>
		<description>syn partially highlighted the approach I often take.

When arguing with someone that logic won&#039;t reach, pick a _liberal_ sacred cow, extend it to the extreme position, and argue from that position. And don&#039;t ever introduce any aspect of religion unless you have a specific non-middle-eastern-origin religion that supports your position.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>syn partially highlighted the approach I often take.</p>
<p>When arguing with someone that logic won&#8217;t reach, pick a _liberal_ sacred cow, extend it to the extreme position, and argue from that position. And don&#8217;t ever introduce any aspect of religion unless you have a specific non-middle-eastern-origin religion that supports your position.</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Haight</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/252.html/comment-page-1#comment-1636</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle Haight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2004 18:40:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=252#comment-1636</guid>
		<description>An interesting argument, and one I haven&#039;t really encountered before.  It ties in with another argument I&#039;ve seen claiming that widespread birth control has contributed to the decline of marriage.  By severing the link between sex and reproduction, birth control makes it safe for women to have sex outside of the cultural institutions designed for raising children.  And that in turn reduces the incentive for men to enter into those cultural institutions, and to stay in them once there.

One question, though.  The argument you sketch suggests that women should choose not to have abortions.  It doesn&#039;t really speak to the question of whether abortion as such is morally legitimate or not.  Free societies legally permit a wide variety of behaviors that people should refrain from for moral reasons.  Do you think abortion should be legal, but that women shouldn&#039;t make use of it, or do you think it should be outright illegal?  If the latter, are there other forms of consensual activity that should also be made illegal on moral grounds?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting argument, and one I haven&#8217;t really encountered before.  It ties in with another argument I&#8217;ve seen claiming that widespread birth control has contributed to the decline of marriage.  By severing the link between sex and reproduction, birth control makes it safe for women to have sex outside of the cultural institutions designed for raising children.  And that in turn reduces the incentive for men to enter into those cultural institutions, and to stay in them once there.</p>
<p>One question, though.  The argument you sketch suggests that women should choose not to have abortions.  It doesn&#8217;t really speak to the question of whether abortion as such is morally legitimate or not.  Free societies legally permit a wide variety of behaviors that people should refrain from for moral reasons.  Do you think abortion should be legal, but that women shouldn&#8217;t make use of it, or do you think it should be outright illegal?  If the latter, are there other forms of consensual activity that should also be made illegal on moral grounds?</p>
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		<title>By: syn</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/252.html/comment-page-1#comment-1635</link>
		<dc:creator>syn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 19 Oct 2004 12:03:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=252#comment-1635</guid>
		<description>I know the feeling.  I am female and whenever I voice my dissent on the issue of abortion, females automatically spew so much hate towards me.  My reasons against abortion are not religious based at all, on the contrary, I am against abortion on a cultural and social level. I believe abortion has weakened the female, not empowered her.  Because of the actions we females have taken over the past thirty years, males no longer respect the female&#039;s ability to procreate. Even more disturbing, females disrespect our ability to procreate, it is seen as a burden, a problem, a mistake, a thing to rid ourselves of. We females were once honored and respected for our ability to procreate, today we reduced ourselves to barbarism.  Not very empowering in my opinion.


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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know the feeling.  I am female and whenever I voice my dissent on the issue of abortion, females automatically spew so much hate towards me.  My reasons against abortion are not religious based at all, on the contrary, I am against abortion on a cultural and social level. I believe abortion has weakened the female, not empowered her.  Because of the actions we females have taken over the past thirty years, males no longer respect the female&#8217;s ability to procreate. Even more disturbing, females disrespect our ability to procreate, it is seen as a burden, a problem, a mistake, a thing to rid ourselves of. We females were once honored and respected for our ability to procreate, today we reduced ourselves to barbarism.  Not very empowering in my opinion.</p>
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