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	<title>Comments on: When the Left thinks force is OK</title>
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	<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html</link>
	<description>Kyle and Anne Haight: Annoying People In Stereo Since 1971</description>
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		<title>By: Phil Winsor</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1400</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Winsor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Mar 2004 16:43:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1400</guid>
		<description>After a careful search of the BATF regs online and the NRA web site, I can report the following:
No federal law exists limiting the number of firearms a private citizen may own (assuming the citizen is not prohibited by law from owning any firearm).
However, multiple purchases of handguns in less than 30 days must be reported, but are not prohibited.

There may be state laws on the books addressing an &quot;armory&quot; but they are probably subject to interpretation by the authorities as to what is an &quot;armory&quot;. I remember a case several (10? 15?)years ago where someone was charged with maintaining an armory (memories that far back are hazy), and I believe he was aquitted. Any amplification from other readers out there?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After a careful search of the BATF regs online and the NRA web site, I can report the following:<br />
No federal law exists limiting the number of firearms a private citizen may own (assuming the citizen is not prohibited by law from owning any firearm).<br />
However, multiple purchases of handguns in less than 30 days must be reported, but are not prohibited.</p>
<p>There may be state laws on the books addressing an &#8220;armory&#8221; but they are probably subject to interpretation by the authorities as to what is an &#8220;armory&#8221;. I remember a case several (10? 15?)years ago where someone was charged with maintaining an armory (memories that far back are hazy), and I believe he was aquitted. Any amplification from other readers out there?</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Haight</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1399</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Haight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2004 21:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1399</guid>
		<description>Well, can anyone out there clarify this?  That&#039;s a piece of &quot;common knowledge&quot; that I&#039;ve had forever, although I don&#039;t know the origin of the belief.  I&#039;m sure I could be full of crap.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, can anyone out there clarify this?  That&#8217;s a piece of &#8220;common knowledge&#8221; that I&#8217;ve had forever, although I don&#8217;t know the origin of the belief.  I&#8217;m sure I could be full of crap.</p>
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		<title>By: Sigivald</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1398</link>
		<dc:creator>Sigivald</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2004 19:45:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1398</guid>
		<description>Anne Haight said: &quot;(as it is illegal in the US for anyone but a licensed dealer to own more than 1 of the same kind of gun -- that constitutes an armory somehow).&quot;

What Mr. Winsor said; I know of no Federal law prohibiting such a thing (indeed, many gun &lt;i&gt;collectors&lt;/i&gt; own a dozen or more of the &quot;same kind&quot; of gun, be it a P-08 Luger or a 1911 Colt or whatnot.).

I&#039;m further not aware of any state banning the practice (nor do I believe such a statute would withstand a 2nd Amendment challenge), though that&#039;s no guarantee one doesn&#039;t exist. (IANAL, but I do try to follow the state of US gun laws...)

I guess I&#039;d better buy a second 1911 before such a law is passed! (And does an 1890 model Nagant count as the same type of gun as an M44? So confusing!)
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anne Haight said: &#8220;(as it is illegal in the US for anyone but a licensed dealer to own more than 1 of the same kind of gun &#8212; that constitutes an armory somehow).&#8221;</p>
<p>What Mr. Winsor said; I know of no Federal law prohibiting such a thing (indeed, many gun <i>collectors</i> own a dozen or more of the &#8220;same kind&#8221; of gun, be it a P-08 Luger or a 1911 Colt or whatnot.).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m further not aware of any state banning the practice (nor do I believe such a statute would withstand a 2nd Amendment challenge), though that&#8217;s no guarantee one doesn&#8217;t exist. (IANAL, but I do try to follow the state of US gun laws&#8230;)</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;d better buy a second 1911 before such a law is passed! (And does an 1890 model Nagant count as the same type of gun as an M44? So confusing!)</p>
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		<title>By: Anne Haight</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1397</link>
		<dc:creator>Anne Haight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2004 17:01:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1397</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a pretty pathetic troll, Leftie.  You want to try again with something a little less obvious?
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a pretty pathetic troll, Leftie.  You want to try again with something a little less obvious?</p>
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		<title>By: Leftie</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1396</link>
		<dc:creator>Leftie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2004 12:29:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1396</guid>
		<description>Mithras is correct. The real victims are the Left here. Sure its wrong to punch a freeper. But more wrong to send it out to be mouthed by the corporate-right blogspere.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mithras is correct. The real victims are the Left here. Sure its wrong to punch a freeper. But more wrong to send it out to be mouthed by the corporate-right blogspere.</p>
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		<title>By: David Foster</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1395</link>
		<dc:creator>David Foster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2004 03:06:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1395</guid>
		<description>The reference to Weimar Germany is an important one. Most people tend to think of Naziism as it was after gaining control of the German government. But long before achieving power, the Nazi party used thuggish behavior to intimidate political opponents.

In the U.S., we have already seen economic power used by the left to intimidate opponents..many people in universities are afraid to speak their true opinions for fear of career retaliation. It&#039;s not surprising that some leftists would also try to justify physical intimidation.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The reference to Weimar Germany is an important one. Most people tend to think of Naziism as it was after gaining control of the German government. But long before achieving power, the Nazi party used thuggish behavior to intimidate political opponents.</p>
<p>In the U.S., we have already seen economic power used by the left to intimidate opponents..many people in universities are afraid to speak their true opinions for fear of career retaliation. It&#8217;s not surprising that some leftists would also try to justify physical intimidation.</p>
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		<title>By: Blogs for Bush</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1401</link>
		<dc:creator>Blogs for Bush</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Mar 2004 00:32:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1401</guid>
		<description>&lt;strong&gt;I Now Have Even More Resolve&lt;/strong&gt;

The past few days have been interesting to say the least. I have to say I never expected the incident that occurred Thursday night (known now on the Blogosphere as &quot;The Margolis Incident&quot;) would have been such a huge story...
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>I Now Have Even More Resolve</strong></p>
<p>The past few days have been interesting to say the least. I have to say I never expected the incident that occurred Thursday night (known now on the Blogosphere as &#8220;The Margolis Incident&#8221;) would have been such a huge story&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Kyle Haight</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1394</link>
		<dc:creator>Kyle Haight</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2004 23:41:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1394</guid>
		<description>My primary reaction was to Hot Dem&#039;s comment, which specifically raised the specter of revolution.  So I don&#039;t think it&#039;s too surprising to see the prospect being discussed.  I do think the recent posts seeking signals that violent left revolution is imminent are going overboard.

To the extent that liberals are also condemning this action, I support them.  Force has no place in political debate, and it&#039;s good to know that many of the people I disagree with politically also understand that.

With respect to your closing comments, I often find myself wondering the same thing about the left.  Leftists spend a hell of a lot of time bitching and moaning about oppression and fascism in America, when frankly their complaints are grossly overblown at best.

I suspect this has something to do with David Horowitz&#039; 6th principle of political war: victory  lies on the side of the people.  This principle is generally implemented by trying to identify one&#039;s position with the interests of the perceived underdog.  Both political parties do this, and so do their adherents.  Putting the point more bluntly, it&#039;s easier to fire up supporters if your cause is presented as a crusade for justice.  If you need to win a political victory to obtain justice, then it follows logically that the status quo ante is ipso facto unjust.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My primary reaction was to Hot Dem&#8217;s comment, which specifically raised the specter of revolution.  So I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s too surprising to see the prospect being discussed.  I do think the recent posts seeking signals that violent left revolution is imminent are going overboard.</p>
<p>To the extent that liberals are also condemning this action, I support them.  Force has no place in political debate, and it&#8217;s good to know that many of the people I disagree with politically also understand that.</p>
<p>With respect to your closing comments, I often find myself wondering the same thing about the left.  Leftists spend a hell of a lot of time bitching and moaning about oppression and fascism in America, when frankly their complaints are grossly overblown at best.</p>
<p>I suspect this has something to do with David Horowitz&#8217; 6th principle of political war: victory  lies on the side of the people.  This principle is generally implemented by trying to identify one&#8217;s position with the interests of the perceived underdog.  Both political parties do this, and so do their adherents.  Putting the point more bluntly, it&#8217;s easier to fire up supporters if your cause is presented as a crusade for justice.  If you need to win a political victory to obtain justice, then it follows logically that the status quo ante is ipso facto unjust.</p>
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		<title>By: Mithras</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1393</link>
		<dc:creator>Mithras</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2004 22:27:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1393</guid>
		<description>This is a really funny thread.  Self-described &quot;freepers&quot; exchange words (which words were they, pray?  I am sure the freepers were all very polite and used no profanity or insults) with union members and one of them takes a swing at them.  One freeper gets his glasses broken, and another gets a scraped knee and a cut on his face.

Clearly, reprehensible.  Several liberal bloggers have said so.  But really, no big deal.  But suddenly the right is all like, &quot;Another civil war in the offing!&quot;  Okaaaay.

Why is it that conservatives always need to feel like they&#039;re being repressed?  It&#039;s especially odd given that your adherents control all three branches of government.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is a really funny thread.  Self-described &#8220;freepers&#8221; exchange words (which words were they, pray?  I am sure the freepers were all very polite and used no profanity or insults) with union members and one of them takes a swing at them.  One freeper gets his glasses broken, and another gets a scraped knee and a cut on his face.</p>
<p>Clearly, reprehensible.  Several liberal bloggers have said so.  But really, no big deal.  But suddenly the right is all like, &#8220;Another civil war in the offing!&#8221;  Okaaaay.</p>
<p>Why is it that conservatives always need to feel like they&#8217;re being repressed?  It&#8217;s especially odd given that your adherents control all three branches of government.</p>
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		<title>By: Phil Winsor</title>
		<link>http://www.leftist.org/haightspeech/archives/161.html/comment-page-1#comment-1392</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Winsor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 28 Mar 2004 20:04:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www2.leftist.org/haightspeech/?p=161#comment-1392</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments, Anne.

First of all, you are correct. The Form 2458 does not ask political orientation, and even if it did,(nor should it) this info is not reported to the BATF until/unless a crime is reported for a weapon the dealer has sold (BTW, I am an FFL holder) or the dealer goes out of business. Then, supposedly, the records are sent to the BATF for archival, and are not supposed to be entered into a database.
What I was thinking was analysis based on locations where weapons were sold, as by state. It may be possible to infer that a spike in sales in CA or MA, for instance, might be a valid indicator. I&#039;m grasping at straws, here, which is why I&#039;m using so many qualifiers. Another potential indicator would be increase in shooting club memberships in liberal states. After all, it takes more than just going out and buying a gun to become proficient in its use, especially for long range shots. (I&#039;m talking in excess of 50 yards, which would be considered long range for the vast majority of non- or new shooters). I am also not looking for conclusions, but indicators. For instance, spikes in gun purchases, coupled with increasingly heated rhetoric from the Left, would cause me to increase my supply of ammo on hand by several orders of magnitude.

The Left could certainly make use of the &quot;gun show loophole&quot; (another incident of leftist propaganda) and purchase their firearms that way, but they would be in for a surprise when they tried to buy from a dealer at a show and found they had to go through the instant check first.

As for using leftist gun dealers to obtain their &quot;arsenal&quot; (far better to buy one or two weapons, and a shitload of ammo for the both, and become expert on them, than own one of each type of weapon) how would they know a dealer was left-leaning? And isn&#039;t a &quot;leftist gun dealer&quot; an oxymoron? I would certainly guess that a majority are conservative. Don&#039;t forget, they are business(wo)men first.

It is possible to purchase civilian versions of the AK-47 and its derivatives without resorting to Mafia smuggling (with the exception of CA &amp; MA, and maybe others). Once you have one, it is very easy to convert one to full auto ONLY-- with a minimum of mechanical skills and a file. Of course, the problem with full auto AKs (or most auto weapons, for that matter) is that if you are lucky, the first round might be on target- the rest might kill any birds flying by, but will more likely result in an empty magazine and plenty of holes in the sky.
I do not believe the law you mention is a federal one, but may be state-related. A visit to Kim du Toit&#039;s blog should illustrate that. I know it is not the case in VT.
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments, Anne.</p>
<p>First of all, you are correct. The Form 2458 does not ask political orientation, and even if it did,(nor should it) this info is not reported to the BATF until/unless a crime is reported for a weapon the dealer has sold (BTW, I am an FFL holder) or the dealer goes out of business. Then, supposedly, the records are sent to the BATF for archival, and are not supposed to be entered into a database.<br />
What I was thinking was analysis based on locations where weapons were sold, as by state. It may be possible to infer that a spike in sales in CA or MA, for instance, might be a valid indicator. I&#8217;m grasping at straws, here, which is why I&#8217;m using so many qualifiers. Another potential indicator would be increase in shooting club memberships in liberal states. After all, it takes more than just going out and buying a gun to become proficient in its use, especially for long range shots. (I&#8217;m talking in excess of 50 yards, which would be considered long range for the vast majority of non- or new shooters). I am also not looking for conclusions, but indicators. For instance, spikes in gun purchases, coupled with increasingly heated rhetoric from the Left, would cause me to increase my supply of ammo on hand by several orders of magnitude.</p>
<p>The Left could certainly make use of the &#8220;gun show loophole&#8221; (another incident of leftist propaganda) and purchase their firearms that way, but they would be in for a surprise when they tried to buy from a dealer at a show and found they had to go through the instant check first.</p>
<p>As for using leftist gun dealers to obtain their &#8220;arsenal&#8221; (far better to buy one or two weapons, and a shitload of ammo for the both, and become expert on them, than own one of each type of weapon) how would they know a dealer was left-leaning? And isn&#8217;t a &#8220;leftist gun dealer&#8221; an oxymoron? I would certainly guess that a majority are conservative. Don&#8217;t forget, they are business(wo)men first.</p>
<p>It is possible to purchase civilian versions of the AK-47 and its derivatives without resorting to Mafia smuggling (with the exception of CA &#038; MA, and maybe others). Once you have one, it is very easy to convert one to full auto ONLY&#8211; with a minimum of mechanical skills and a file. Of course, the problem with full auto AKs (or most auto weapons, for that matter) is that if you are lucky, the first round might be on target- the rest might kill any birds flying by, but will more likely result in an empty magazine and plenty of holes in the sky.<br />
I do not believe the law you mention is a federal one, but may be state-related. A visit to Kim du Toit&#8217;s blog should illustrate that. I know it is not the case in VT.</p>
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